Indie Rockers For the War

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"So do I think we should do this? Well, depends on what "this" is. If "this" is "kill Saddam and then go home," oh God no. The very idea is terrifying and we will suffer for it someday. But if the idea of "this" is "give this nation a kick start towards freedom, while helping Afghanistan back up on its feet and finessing Iran towards its inevitable course to liberalizing," well, yeah, actually, I am. Americans have suffered for too long because of the events of the Middle East, events that really aren't that much of our doing. We've supported some dictators and eased others into power, but we never had much choice in these countries. (The vacuum of good leadership in the Arab world in the last century is truly tragic--Sadat, Ataturk and Katami notwithstanding.) We weren't the Turks, who ruled the region for 500 years, and we weren't the French and British, who stepped into the post-Ottoman breach for a much shorter period of time. We give Israel a lot of money, but we give Egypt almost as much (three billion a year to two billion a year) so the constant Arab cries of favoritism on our part aren't that convincing. I, having done some amateur but concerted investigation into the history of the Middle East, am hard pressed to really say that the problems facing the region--particularly those of the Arabs--is really America's to account for, so much that it justifies persistant terrorist attacks upon Americans here and abroad."

I'm not sure what to think about this, though at least he seems more rational and civilized about it than, say, Charlie Daniels.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 22 March 2003 02:36 (twenty-three years ago)

This from someone who thinks Chim Chim Cheree is also the 10th best song of all time right now.

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Saturday, 22 March 2003 02:37 (twenty-three years ago)

...

But that solo song on the website is grate!!

― Adam A. (Keiko), Saturday, 22 March 2003 02:49 (twenty-three years ago)

it's about time someone makes sense.

― JP Albin (John Paul Albin), Saturday, 22 March 2003 04:14 (twenty-three years ago)

praise for khatami is foolish.

― keith (keithmcl), Saturday, 22 March 2003 05:14 (twenty-three years ago)

sun ra certainly thought chim chim cheree was a great song

then again, sun ra would have also been against the war

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 22 March 2003 05:20 (twenty-three years ago)

At least -- judging from that excerpt -- his opinion's at least thought-out and informed (though he's either totally missing or deliberately ignoring the point with regard to Israel).

― nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 22 March 2003 07:52 (twenty-three years ago)

(And there's something disturbing about the phrase "we never had much choice in these countries.")

― nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 22 March 2003 07:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Ataturk was not Arab. He was a Turk. Turks are not Arabs though most are Muslim. Though tolerant of Islam, Ataturk was through and through a secular ruler.

Though we give Egypt almost as much "accountable" money as Israel does not mean there is no favortism towards the Zionist State. Almost 100 percent of the money that is given to Egyt is in military aid and a good part of that is funneled back to US companies through maintenance and training programs. The Egyptian military is highly dependent on US firms like Raytheon to keep their technology on-line. Other than the military investment, there is very little US involvement west of the Suez. And, when was the last time a vote in Congress went against Israel when a division was drawn between pan Arabia and the Zionist State?

― Imam Yrami, Saturday, 22 March 2003 08:14 (twenty-three years ago)

At least -- judging from that excerpt -- his opinion's at least thought-out and informed (though he's either totally missing or deliberately ignoring the point with regard to Israel).

What about Israel?

― David Allen, Saturday, 22 March 2003 13:51 (twenty-three years ago)

What, that "shitty little country"?

― French Diplomat, Saturday, 22 March 2003 13:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Dave what the world needs in times like these is YOU, God bless yer soul

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Saturday, 22 March 2003 16:50 (twenty-three years ago)

"Americans have suffered for too long because of the events of the Middle East"

Is this a piss take?

― Callum (Callum), Saturday, 22 March 2003 17:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Like most people in Iran, President Khatami is also not an Arab.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Saturday, 22 March 2003 17:32 (twenty-three years ago)

i'm totally going to drive a bulldozer over this guy's lame CDs. if i can find any for $2. and it's a tonka bulldozer.

― your null fame (yournullfame), Saturday, 22 March 2003 23:21 (twenty-three years ago)

God forbid I ask a question rather then come out with a hardline opinion with no real basis, however, writing me off with a zinger is definitely what helps in times of war. In fact, general rule of debate: start all arguments (if you plan on even making an argument at all) with a dig.

― David Allen, Saturday, 22 March 2003 23:48 (twenty-three years ago)

David, I don't feel Dave Q was "writing you off with a zinger" but making a pretty complex point - you'll note that Dave's answer is signed "French Diplomat"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 23 March 2003 01:22 (twenty-three years ago)

I'll just point out the obvious and say that it's possible to disagree with antiwar protesters and still be against the war. Example: http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/18/dissonance-cooper.php

I'll further point out the even more obvious and say that U.S. support for Egypt is just as questionable as our support for the Israeli occupation.

― Pete Scholtes, Sunday, 23 March 2003 21:34 (twenty-three years ago)

I would argue it's more questionable, at least Israel is a genuine democracy.

― P, Sunday, 23 March 2003 21:38 (twenty-three years ago)

I'll just point out the obvious and say that it's possible to disagree with antiwar protesters and still be against the war
I, for one, did not have a problem with that article. Not all of the protesters agree with each other or are saying the same things. Besides, that article was not anti-protest - it was critical of some people's tactics.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Monday, 24 March 2003 00:47 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd also like to add, that, even though nobody here is dumb enough to say it, to the people who do think protesting the war is somehow not supporting the soldiers, you are an idiot.

I mean, isn't the whole purpose of the protests to ensure that soldiers don't die for no reason? Save for the vast amount of protesting happening solely because of the hipness of it all, that is.

One person said "Rallying against the war is a slap in the face to the soldiers on the line." Aren't the soldiers fighting for our right to rally against the war? If it weren't, the war would be redundant.

― David Allen, Monday, 24 March 2003 01:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Americans have suffered for too long because of the events of the Middle East
that line's gonna bother me for a while

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 March 2003 04:27 (twenty-three years ago)

dammit Horace you forgot to add "you pieces of shit"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 24 March 2003 04:28 (twenty-three years ago)

That means it wasn't the REAL me who posted that, John. It was one of my many body doubles that I use. You should have been able to tell by the saggy jowls and Mickey Rooney specs.

you pieces of shit

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 March 2003 04:37 (twenty-three years ago)

aaahh, now that's much more like it

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 24 March 2003 04:54 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd also like to add, that, even though nobody here is dumb enough to say it, to the people who do think protesting the war is somehow not supporting the soldiers, you are an idiot.

I think the argument goes: By protesting the war, you prolong it, and get more people killed.

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Monday, 24 March 2003 05:21 (twenty-three years ago)

indie rockers, schmindie rockers. what i wanna know is, what's MA$E's position on the war?

― Tad (llamasfur), Monday, 24 March 2003 05:26 (twenty-three years ago)

doggy

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 24 March 2003 05:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Dear Tad:

War is not good for babies and other living things.

Your pal,
http://members.aol.com/dubplatestyle/mase.jpg
Ma$e

― Ma$e, Monday, 24 March 2003 05:31 (twenty-three years ago)

What about Israel?

David: in the excerpt above he pretends the amount of aid we send Egypt and Israel is somehow directly representative of our overall support for them -- "We give Egypt almost as much money as Israel," he seems to be saying, "so obviously there's no bias there." This completely ignores the millions of more important ways in which we pander to Israel, going well beyond the technical dollar figure of the aid we give them. Say, for instance, the glaring fact that we are ostensibly invading Iraq because of their non-compliance with UN resolutions, as compared to the fact that the US has done everything in its very great power to keep Israel from suffering any consequences for their non-compliance with UN resolutions -- like, I dunno, the settlements they keep building in clear violation of practically everything ever except for American say-so.

Pretending the gap between our treatment of Israel and the Muslim world is as simple as a $1 billion aid discrepancy between Israel and Egypt is dishonest on pretty unimaginable levels.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 24 March 2003 05:43 (twenty-three years ago)

I certainly agree with that.

Even though I'm not a fan of Michael Moore, I do agree with what he said in his book, in regards to Israel. If the Palestinian people were to just peacefully protest; lying down in the road preventing Israeli tanks from coming into their town, in stead of blowing themselves up, the entire world would be much more sympathetic to their plight.

I'm personally frustrated by the American media's take on it all. I'm Jewish, so I obviously don't beleive in some Jewish run media, but I can say that all I ever hear about in the news is off Palestinian suicide bombers, never of anything Israel could have done to provoke it. There is a very obvious bias.

― David Allen, Monday, 24 March 2003 12:46 (twenty-three years ago)

(uhh fwiw a French diplomat did call Israel "a shitty little country" about a year ago. It was a big flap, and he wasn't withdrawn, I don't think.)

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Monday, 24 March 2003 14:14 (twenty-three years ago)

The fact that you think Ataturk and Khatami are Arabs is enough for me to dismiss your viewpoint peremptorily. Why don't you and your President come back when you've actually learned to tell the difference between Turks, Persians and Arabs - they all look the same to you I suppose. The arrogance and ignorance of SOME Americans* continues to astonish and dismay the rest of us who have to share a planet with you.

(*unfortunately including the Americans who are running the US and th world right now)

― Dadaismus, Monday, 24 March 2003 14:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Hell, even when Americans do it the Israeli bulldozers run them over.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 24 March 2003 18:48 (twenty-three years ago)

>>I think the argument goes: By protesting the war, you prolong it, and get more people killed<<

um.......... how? the protests didn't prevent the start of the war. the portestors are not in the war zone. the politicians in power pay little to no attention to the protestors. protest of this war is useful only as a symbolic gesture.

― bucky wunderlick (bucky), Monday, 24 March 2003 19:26 (twenty-three years ago)

I think the guy's a fucking idiot. I bet his band sucks, too. I'm going to go listen to some Sisters of Mercy.

― justin s., Tuesday, 25 March 2003 08:49 (twenty-three years ago)

travis from dismemberment plan has got to be the one of the only level-headed musicians with [sensible] views on the war.
he realizes that we can't all rely on what we read in the NY Times and maybe someone outta speak out on the truth. he is the true rebel in this state of affairs. rock.

― JP Albin (John Paul Albin), Sunday, 30 March 2003 23:40 (twenty-three years ago)

the "truth"? there is no set truth in international affairs, no transcendent maxim to go by. only estimates, expectations and calculations of cost. bush and his people, regardless of the religious rhetoric they use, are only going by what they think will garner them, not the world, not even the american people, the most profit and long-term gain. the word truth is only relevant in mathematical equations, and sometimes not even then. it doesn't apply in this situation at all. also... a rebel is someone who fights against established power structures, and no matter what Fox News says, the anti-war movement is NOT an established power structure. Travis isn't a rebel, he's a patsy. and his "sensible" views are in perfect concordance with a bunch of white old butchers' wet dreams. i dare say he took that stance just to sell records. so fuck him, man. if he's got such a big erection for the war, he ought to play at the next Republican National Convention. along with musical "rebels" like Destiny's Child and Ricky Martin. rock.

― justin s., Monday, 31 March 2003 01:08 (twenty-three years ago)

I like how Travis is trying to sell records even though his band broke up.

― David Allen, Monday, 31 March 2003 01:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah. Inventive bastard, isn't he?

(It's not that my sarcasm meter is off, it's just that I don't care.)

― justin s., Monday, 31 March 2003 01:37 (twenty-three years ago)

travis from dismemberment plan has got to be the one of the only level-headed musicians with [sensible] views on the war.

heheh. you like glassjaw.

― your null fame (yournullfame), Monday, 31 March 2003 02:44 (twenty-three years ago)

hey. glassjaw's cool. travis morrison's a dumb git, but i like darryl quite fine.

― justin s., Monday, 31 March 2003 02:50 (twenty-three years ago)

i wonder what darryl thinks of the war. any one know?

― justin s., Monday, 31 March 2003 02:56 (twenty-three years ago)

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