I have forgotten how to listen to difficult music

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I found a copy of Crooning On Venus (the follow-up to Ocean Of Sound) cheap the other day and put it on when I got home. I was surprised at how affecting and effective I found a lot of it. Not because the tracks were good, though they often were, but because it's been so long since I listened to anything much 'experimental' for pleasure that things like "Starsailor" I found really exciting and unnerving, more so even than when I first heard them, back when I listened to a lot of weird stuff.

I'm quite pleased with this forgetting - it's like flexing atrophied muscles that I used to take for granted. But what's also happened is that I have got utterly out of touch with the non-mainstream. From 94 to about 97 I listened to lots of odd stuff - noise, Japanese weirdo rock, ultra-minimal electronica, drone compositions, etc. Then I lost touch, partly cos of changed personal circumstances and partly because the electronic scene was going down a glitchy blind alley that offered me nothing and partly because of the us-and-them divisiveness of most of the review sources for this stuff.

So now I'd like you to describe and recommend some post-97 unusual records that you think I might like. I am *not* that interested in the 'extremes' of rock, or hip-hop, or techno - any other kind of soundfuckery or unusualness is fair game!

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 28 March 2003 12:01 (twenty-three years ago)

What I used to listen to lots - Charlemagne Palestine, Keiji Haino, Ground Zero, Ryuji Ikeda, those awesome David Toop comps, Nurse With Wound, etc. etc.

(To a seasoned listener I expect that list is the equiv. of saying "Yeah I used to like alternative comics - you know, Los Bros, Clowes, Bagge".)

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 28 March 2003 12:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Tom, try Royal Trux. When I go home next I will check which album of theirs I have is actually good, and tell you what it is called.

the really great thing about Royal Trux is that there is no describable difference between their good and their bad records. It's just that the good ones sound like they've been thrown together in ten minutes by junkies who've spent the recording budget on smack, only in a good way.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 28 March 2003 12:18 (twenty-three years ago)

So do the bad ones, in a bad way. Get the 'Singles, Live, Unreleased' box thing it's MAGNIfICENT

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 28 March 2003 12:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Except you don't like the Stones... tho RTX could fool you into liking them which'd be good... the box has DIIFICULT and EASY FUN stuff and BETWEEN in about equal abundance.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 28 March 2003 12:23 (twenty-three years ago)

So do the bad ones, in a bad way.

that certainly was the implication of my statement.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 28 March 2003 12:40 (twenty-three years ago)

'which album of theirs I have is actually good'

's'called 'Veterans of Disorder' and it's the best!!

― dave q, Friday, 28 March 2003 12:48 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry DV I kinda knew, it just seemed worth explicating

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Royal Trux aren't that difficult are they? Just noisy Stones pastiche, innit?

Most of those names Tom mentioned I've never heard of, and I'm not even sure what 'experimental' or 'difficult' music is these days anyway; the Loose Fur album was meant to be all experimental weirdness but it just sounded like slow noodley guitar pop to me (which I found very agreeable).

I guess the weirdest/most difficult things I've listened to lately have been Cannibal Ox and El-P, but as they're leftfield hip hop they're out of Tom's criteria. We listened to some Keith Jarret this morning and that was 'intense'...

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:16 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh, and I just bought some Susumu Yokota (Grinning Cat) cos it looked nice and had a complimentary sticker ont he cover - what the fuck am I in for? I think I recognised the name but I ain't never heard the chap...

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:19 (twenty-three years ago)

heh, yeah i think any suggestion i make will be met with "You call THAT difficult?". i only have "thankyou" by royal trux, and it's nothing but boogie-woogie cock-rock, but i hear some of the very early stuff is supposed to be more "out-there".

susuma yokota is superb. get "sakura". i know robin loves "grinning cat" too.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Royal Trux aren't that difficult are they? Just noisy Stones pastiche, innit?
Yes, maybe, but loads bettah than the Kills.

― nathalie (nathalie), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Some RTX is insanely tricky to listen to. Until you GET IT MAAAAAN. eg on the SLU BOX SET

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:24 (twenty-three years ago)

tom- I'd recommend you get Paul Dolden's new record (can't remember title, but there was an interview with him in the last wire, that's the one w/faust on the cover).

L'Ivresse de la vitesse has also been remastered and that's apparently changed the sound of the record (I rememeber that you had this record)

(I haven't checked any of this but I shall)

since you like palestine (how his the sound fills the room is an aspect of his i like) and haino (guitar noise crap) I suggest you get sheer hellish miasma by kevin druum (its actually an update of sorts on metal machine music, and much better than MMM (I only have the remastered version of the latter and I sold it after hearing druum)). That's on mego.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:29 (twenty-three years ago)

the new paul dolden rec is, BTW, a lot less dense than L'ivresse and it has a few melodies. I'll get this and report if you like.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:30 (twenty-three years ago)

sheer hellish miasma has some beautiful drones.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:31 (twenty-three years ago)

Tom, how does Crooning on Venus stack up against Ocean of Sound, which I love?

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:42 (twenty-three years ago)

I dont own Ocean of Sound any more so I don't know :( I remember CoV as being a little less startling but still very interesting in comparison, as opposed to Booming On Pluto and Guitars On Mars which were disappointing.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Ground Zero 'Revolutionary Pekingese Opera'

― dave q, Friday, 28 March 2003 13:48 (twenty-three years ago)

''drone compositions''

have you tried any indian classical music tom?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:49 (twenty-three years ago)

The Kevin Drumm sounds like the sort of thing I'm after. I'm not sure I trust Dolden.

Rev. Pek. Op is A++ - I lost touch after Consume:Red, there was a thread on live vs studio Consume:Red but I never heard the live one.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 28 March 2003 13:52 (twenty-three years ago)

heh, since you haven't told me whether you have or not listened to any indian classical I'll take it as a no but if you are looking for beautiful drones then I suggest you get Ram Narayan's Raga lalit (he plays the sarangi, a stringed instrument).

I must get some ground zero myself.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 14:06 (twenty-three years ago)

I would go for Oren Ambarchi's Suspension. Gorgeous, minimalist reapeating guitars-as-fender-rhodes-piano drones. Uses these wonderful low frequencies sometimes that make my room shake like the bizness. I especially like track four "Gene" so I'd hit that up on slsk if this sounds at all interesting.

― original bgm, Friday, 28 March 2003 14:32 (twenty-three years ago)

I think you should probably listen to Lloyd Cole.

― the pinefox, Friday, 28 March 2003 14:35 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm sure the Nuno Canavarro 'Plux Quba' reissue has been dissected on ILM already, but it's beautiful and strange and very worth hearing. It's on Jim O'Rourke's label, however.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 28 March 2003 14:36 (twenty-three years ago)

''I would go for Oren Ambarchi's Suspension''

here's someone i ought to check out. I think sundar has many good things to say abt him.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 14:38 (twenty-three years ago)

ram narayan = da bomb.

there was one of the oren ambarchi LPs, i think it was one of the stacte series, it was bloody amazing. side one was blips and bleeps, second side had this great fast-forward sounding melody looping around and around like terry riley for ants. ooh. i have to go find that again.

i really like the keith fullerton whitman disc on kranky.

― your null fame (yournullfame), Friday, 28 March 2003 14:53 (twenty-three years ago)

which is mainly pretty simple drones but someone quite accurately described it as 'going well between the last two boredoms albums and the new black dice.'

― your null fame (yournullfame), Friday, 28 March 2003 14:58 (twenty-three years ago)

''ram narayan = da bomb.''

do you know any other good indian classical players null? can you recommend.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 15:03 (twenty-three years ago)

I think you're prob. still suspicious of IDM, but I have enjoyed the Clicks and Cuts compilations. Thomas Koner is still ace, if only by being pretty much exactly the same as he ever was...

― alext (alext), Friday, 28 March 2003 15:28 (twenty-three years ago)

One problem Tom is you've never written much about what you liked in that experimental stuff from a few years ago. So I don't know what it was that grabbed you. Fill me in & I'll have some recs.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 28 March 2003 15:32 (twenty-three years ago)

not off the top of my head... i have a few indian classical LPs but most of them list the players in fine print on the back, but that narayan album is definitely classic. one of the more interesting ones i have is anayampatti dhandapani's _the art of jalatharangam_ - he uses sticks to play bowls filled with varying levels of water. after a while it starts to resonate your skull cavities.

tony scott's "music for yoga meditation" is pretty nice - he's a jazz clarinetist and on the album it's basically him and some sitar and/or tamboura, it's a really mellow but beautiful album that tends towards improvisational drone rather than the rules of a raga.

― your null fame (yournullfame), Friday, 28 March 2003 15:33 (twenty-three years ago)

astral weeks :)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 28 March 2003 15:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Second Sheer Hellish Miasma.

I'd also suggest To Live and Shave in LA's The Wigmaker in 18th Century Williamsburg.

― hstencil, Friday, 28 March 2003 15:37 (twenty-three years ago)

''one of the more interesting ones i have is anayampatti dhandapani's _the art of jalatharangam_ - he uses sticks to play bowls filled with varying levels of water''

that sounds fantastic! I will look for this thanks. if you have anymore names and rememeber then drop an email if you can.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 15:38 (twenty-three years ago)

the keith fullerton whitman album rocks. i'll third the kevin drumm, and i'll do you a cdr of it if you want, tom.

― toby (tsg20), Friday, 28 March 2003 16:11 (twenty-three years ago)

tom, i'll fourth the kevin drumm (i listened to it the other night and at the appropriate volume it's actually quite relaxing); you should also really get some other mego stuff if you don't have it already: the fennesz "singles comp" (on touch, actually), the jim o'rourke disc (i'm happy, and i'm singing, and a 1 2 3 4), pita's get out, etc.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 16:25 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm really suspicious of Mego - it was that whole scene that pushed me away from 'out there' music in the first place - Farmerzzzzzzz Manual, Pita, clicky clicky clicky, it was all so horrible and unenlightening.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 28 March 2003 16:30 (twenty-three years ago)

that jim o'rourke album is lovely, too.

― toby (tsg20), Friday, 28 March 2003 16:36 (twenty-three years ago)

I do like the sound of the Kevin Drumm though.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 28 March 2003 16:37 (twenty-three years ago)

hah, tom you have be "disinformed"

the o'rourke album is quite lovely, like toby sez...mostly samples (of chimes, cash registers, accordions, etc.) put through the loop and chop and process into wonderful new patterns...much closer to trad "minimalism" (of the reich/glass variety) than the snapcracklepop. also the last track could be a lovely "early music" string composition if you squint hard enuff.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 16:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Hmm, I'm baffled by your comments on Farmers Manual and Pita, but to each their own.

― hstencil, Friday, 28 March 2003 16:41 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh well that does sound very good*, and yeah I probably should give that 97-98 stuff another chance, but at the time I was really repelled by it and it made me into the pop fiend I am today.

*I have a lot of time for O'Rourke with his experimentalist hat on - Happy Days is ace!

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 28 March 2003 16:48 (twenty-three years ago)

i just dug out that wire with the matt herbert interview in it for other purposes and i realized it was the one with the "worship the glitch" article...it all seemed so very exciting in 99, dinnit?

tom, you were into phill niblock too, right? you should check out the album he put out on touch a year or two back.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 16:51 (twenty-three years ago)

the third track on the o'rourke reminds me of "stone in focus" of saw ii. this is a good thing btw.

― toby (tsg20), Friday, 28 March 2003 16:55 (twenty-three years ago)

I still listen to that Jim O'Rourke ALL THE TIME. More than anything else that came out in 2001, I'd say, even.

― Adam A. (Keiko), Friday, 28 March 2003 17:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Also the Niblock CD on O'Rourke's Moikai label is good, too.

― hstencil, Friday, 28 March 2003 17:22 (twenty-three years ago)

yes, the mego o'rourke has quietly snuck up to become a real favorite

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 17:23 (twenty-three years ago)

what abt maryanne amachaer (sp?). never been able to track down her CD on Tzadik.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 17:24 (twenty-three years ago)

(heh, also i knew this had to be tom before i opened it this morning for some reason)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 17:25 (twenty-three years ago)

o'rouke does pop badly and that has always put me off his experimental stuff. I don't trust him really.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 17:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Any of the Henry Flynt releases that have come out in the last few years - he's kind of a hillbilly Tony Conrad.

Most of Atavistic's 'Unheard Music Series' discs are v. gd. I particularly like 'Belle View I-IV' by Nachtluft (Gunter Muller/Andreas Bosshard/Jacques Widmer) from 1986 - improvised percussion/tapes/metal bashing, a great feeling of time/space/the infinite, plus NOIZE.

I remember that you used to like Ghost and other Jap psych hippy wibblers, so the No-Neck Blues Band and Jackie O Motherfucker cld well be up yr street too.

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Friday, 28 March 2003 19:37 (twenty-three years ago)

here's someone i ought to check out. I think sundar has many good things to say abt him.

Yes, I think it was his album of the year, maybe?

The Keith Fullerton Whitman record is nice. Pretty easy on the ears for "difficult" music too.

― original bgm, Friday, 28 March 2003 20:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Check any Rafael Toral release for more droney goodness. The Polwechsel /Fennesz release is pretty good too. I also rate the new Hecker album on Mego, though probably a bit too much for newbies and lapsed avant fans.

― Nathan Webb (Nathan Webb), Friday, 28 March 2003 20:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Ellery Eskelin's _Vanishing Point_ on HatArt Records is stunning. Jazz instrumentation, but playing rich, textured, dynamic improv in a sort of "busy drone" (pardon my oxymoron) style. I don't know how many of you other folks have heard it, but it might hit the spot.

― Clarke B., Friday, 28 March 2003 20:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Hecker, hell yeah... for that matter, his _Haunt Me, Haunt Me, Do It Again_ from a couple years ago is tops.

― Clarke B., Friday, 28 March 2003 20:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Great drone = Mirror (Andrew Chalk and Christoph Heemann). Though their earliest releases were in annoying elitist limited vinyl pressings (haha exactly what Tom hates!) they've recently begun releasing cds. Really good stuff.

Second the Polweschel/Fennesz (really any number of fine releases on the erstwhile label) and the Nachtluft. Since it seems no one is afraid to mention J*m O'R**rk* on this thread, I'd say the duo cd with Gunter Muller on for4ears is spectacular.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Friday, 28 March 2003 21:04 (twenty-three years ago)

i was not impressed with polweschel/fennesz...probably because i haven't had the time to give it the proper attention

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 21:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Does anyone have the tracklisting to those Toop comps on Virgin?

And I overslept and didn't see Pita last weekend. What did I miss?

― Amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:11 (twenty-three years ago)

The O'Rourke mix on the Tri-Dim "2 Of 2" album is similarly spectacular - about 4mins of Bernhard Gunter/Francisco Lopez low freq stuff followed by about another 8 where he slows the duo's improv into a series of smeared, drowsy notes. The rest of the CD is great too.

― Nathan Webb (Nathan Webb), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:33 (twenty-three years ago)

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRNGNGNGNGNZZZZZZZKRKRKRKfwipfwipfwipfwipfwipfwipGRRANANANNNNNNNNN
nnnchingchingchingKREEEEEEEAKKKKKGRUNGRUNGRUNWHOOOOSH

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:34 (twenty-three years ago)

oh that was to amateurist, obv

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:34 (twenty-three years ago)

not much was missed then ;-)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Suspension is great, yes.

Also, obviously, Derek Bailey - Ballads. Angular, fractured, sour-sounding improvisations on classic melodies, with the guitar tone coming in and out of clarity ('flubbed' notes as musical device). Some eerie resonances too.

Robert Normandeau - Clair de terre. Quebec electroacoustic composer. Expansive, sometimes jarring, sometimes almost dreamlike compositions.

If you don't know it, Morton Feldman's Neither has been on regular play here recently. A soprano wails Beckett while an orchestra shifts thick masses of texture.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 29 March 2003 16:51 (twenty-three years ago)

I'll check out the normandeau sundar. sounds good.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 29 March 2003 16:52 (twenty-three years ago)

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