defending the indefensible: rock is dead

Rock: dead or dying? Or not?

(Note: I'm sorta playing devil's advocate here -- I love rock and roll.)

By comparison, rock is much more alive. I felt more energy at a recent Sadies show and a recent Dirtbombs show than I felt watching a few DJs play anonymous "electronica" at various hyped shows. Blah.

Unless you're talking mainstream rock n roll, which is represented by eunuchs like Dave Matthews and Coldplay....ick

Well, that's merelyyour opinion, isn't it? Personally speaking, I find Hip Hop to have creatively run aground some time in the lat 90's, but ya don't hear people crowing about "the Death of Hip Hop," gosh no, shock, horror, god forbid. I can still think of scads of rock bands still making interesting music.

If you wanna get anywhere with this neverending debate, don't you first have to find a way to end the unending arguments about what the words "dead" and "artform" mean? Then yer cooking.

I think what sets the rock argument apart is the mostly unconscious American sense that history started new and fresh in 1945. We've had this idea for the last few generations that there's some clear line between History (everything before World War II) and the Present (everything after World War II). Rock 'n' roll is a -- maybe the -- cultural signifier of the American Era, so it tends to get all bound up in socio-cultural mythology. But as we've gained distance from its mythical birth, it has become easier to see it not as some radical break but as part of a continuum that, necessarily, stretches forever into the past and future. What came before "Rock 'n' Roll" is just as important as rock 'n' roll itself, as is what comes after rock 'n' roll, and while all of these things are identifiable by sound and style and era, they are also all related. To talk about rock'n'roll as a species in danger of extinction is to miss the point -- not just because the species itself is still much in evidence by any objective measure, but because it has mutated and multiplied and passed its cultural genes on in so many different ways that it would remain present even if all the guitars in the world turned into laptops tomorrow.

As for Four Tet, I saw him play and liked it fine, and I like what I've heard from the album. But nothing he did got me on my feet and moving the way Kasey Chambers did singing Fred Eaglesmith's "Freight Train" last night. Which means nothing more than the tiresomely inevitable whatever-rocks-yer-world.

At the end of the dream
If you know where I mean
When the mist just starts to clear
In a similar way
At the end of today
I could feel the sound of writing on the wall

It cries for you
It's the least that you can do
Like a spiral on the wind
I can hear it screaming in my mind

Chorus:

Long live rock'n'roll } 3 times

In a different time
When the words didn't rhyme
You could never quite be sure
Then on with the change
It was simple but strange
And you knew the feeling seemed to say it all

It cries for you
It's the least that you can do
Like a spiral on the wind
I can hear it screaming in my mind

Chorus:

Long live rock'n'roll } 3 times

If you suddenly see
What was happened with me
You should spread the word around
And tell everyone here
That it's perfectly clear
They can sail above it all on what they've found

It cries for you
It's the least that you can do
Like a spiral on the wind
I can hear it screaming in my mind

Chorus:

Long live rock'n'roll } 3 times

I've seen Fred Eaglesmith twice (but not Kasey Chambers), and I think he's a fine songwriter who ought to have a bigger career going on right now. I wonder what the problem is.

Long Live Rock, I Need It Every Night,
Long Live Rock, Come On And Join The Line,
Long Live Rock, Be It Dead Or Alive.

People Walk In Sideways Pretending That They're Leaving,
We Put On Our Makeup And Work Out All The Lead-ins,
Jack Is In The Alley Selling Tickets Made In Hong Kong,
Promoter's In The Pay Box Wondering Where The Band's Gone,
Back In The Pub The Governor Stops The Clock,
Rock Is Dead, They Say,
Long Live Rock.

Long Live Rock, I Need It Every Night,
Long Live Rock, Come On And Join The Line,
Long Live Rock, Be It Dead Or Alive.

Landslide, Rocks Are Falling,
Falling Down 'round Our Very Heads,
We Tried But You Were Yawning,
Look Again, Rock Is Dead, Rock Is Dead, Rock Is Dead.

The Place Is Really Jumping To The High-watt Amps,
'Til A 20-inch Cymbal Fell And Cut The Lamps,
In The Blackout They Dance Right Into The Aisle,
And As The Doors Fly Open Even The Promoter Smiles,
Someone Takes His Pants Off And The Rafters Knock,
Rock Is Dead, They Say,
Long Live Rock, Long Live Rock, Long Live Rock.

Long Live Rock, Long Live Rock, Long Live Rock,
Long Live Rock, Long Live Rock, Long Live Rock.

Long Live Rock, I Need It Every Night,
Long Live Rock, Come On And Join The Line,
Long Live Rock, Be It Dead Or Alive.

God gave rock and roll to you, gave rock and roll to you
Put it in the soul of everyone
Do you know what you want? You don't know for sure
You don't feel right, you can't find a cure
And you're gettin' less than what you're lookin' for

You don't have money or a fancy car
And you're tired of wishin' on a falling star
You gotta put your faith in a loud guitar

Chorus:
God gave rock and roll to you, gave rock and roll to you
Gave rock and roll to everyone (oh yeah)
God gave rock and roll to you, gave rock and roll to you
Put it in the soul of everyone

"Now listen"
If you wanna be a singer, or play guitar
Man, you gotta sweat or you won't get far
Cause it's never too late to work nine-to-five

You can take a stand, or you can compromise
You can work real hard or just fantasize
But you don't start livin' till you realize - "I gotta tell ya!"

God gave rock and roll to you, gave rock and roll to you
Gave rock and roll to everyone
God gave rock and roll to you, gave rock and roll to you
Put it in the soul

(Instrumental break)

God gave rock and roll to you (to everyone he gave the song to be sung)
Gave rock and roll to you, gave rock and roll to everyone

God gave rock and roll to you (to everyone he gave the song to be sung)
Gave rock and roll to you, saved rock and roll for everyone
Saved rock and roll

chorus repeats out...

"I know life sometimes can get tough! And I know life sometimes can be a drag!
But people, we have been given a gift, we have been given a road
And that road's name is... Rock and Roll!"

Turned On The Radio
Sounded Like A Disco
Musta Turned The Dial For A Couple Of Miles
But I Couldn't Find No Rock 'n Roll

This Computerized Crap Ain't Gettin' Me Off
Everywhere I Go The Kids Wanna Rock
London To L.A.
Talkin' 'bout The New Wave
For A Couple Of Bucks You Get A Weird Haircut
And Waste Your Life Away

Around The World Or Around The Block
Everywhere I Go The Kids Wanna Rock
Get Me My D.J.
I Got Somethin' He's Gotta Play
Wanna Hear It I Can't Wait
So Turn It Up, Turn It Up...

Kick Down The Barricades
Listen What The Kids Say
From Time To Time People Change Their Minds
But The Music Is Here To Stay

I've Seen It All From The Bottom To The Top
Everywhere I Go The Kids Wanna Rock

Around The World Or Around The Block
Everywhere I Go The Kids Wanna Rock

Everywhere I Go The Kids Wanna Rock

Killer Mike: "Rap is Dead!" Okay but so I think there was basically just a big linguistic crisis somewhere in the 90s when people noticed something: a certain lineage of bands is clearly going to be working around all the possible variants of 60s and 70s style high-modernist "rock" and pop for what seems like ever -- and this is, you know, fine -- but enough of the possible variants appeared to have been filled that any "progression" rock undertook would probably have to involve becoming at least somewhat not-rock. ("Post-rock," Reynolds sort of thought, but hey look: a lot of the people who liked that have gone back to liking rock bands who work in or revamp the 60s and 70s models.) So the question just became a semantic one: when bands do something that seems to be a next step from the rock lineage, is that "rock" expanding vibrantly into new forms or is it something other than "rock," meaning rock is just the old thing that spawned it?

(And let's be clear: when people say "rock is dead" they don't mean that no one likes it, just that it's more of a much-loved artifact than anything that's going anywhere at the moment. Loads of everyone likes blues, too, but it's more an exercise in authenticity than a work still in progress.)

Anyway anyway the funny part to me is that hardly anyone who talks about stuff like whether rock is "dead" pays much attention to the music making the most obvious case that it's not, which is, like, nu-metal. The people playing this stuff have more recent and novel inspirations for their own material than most ostensibly progressive rock bands -- they're some of the only popular guitar-playing musicians who'll gladly say that the albums they take their influences from were mostly released after 1992. (Hahaha cue people who don't think rock is dead: "If that's where rock is living, I'd rather see it die!")

So there's no question that rock still speaks to loads of people and will probably continue to until my grandchildren hit middle ago -- the question is more whether it'll be speaking in the same voices it has since the 1960s. It wouldn't surprise me to see musicians in 2090 still saying they're mostly into Velvet Underground and Beatles records, but if that's the case they'll have turned into the equivalent of people playing folk music today, and the life of things will have to move elsewhere. And that "elsewhere" will theoretically have something to do with rock history and something to do with hip-hop history and etc. etc., but hopefully it'll have taken it all somewhere new enough that we'll have to acknowledge that it's something else entirely.

(That said, I do have concerns about whether the way people currently consume music maybe sort of stifles the chances of Brand New Things becoming viable genres, since we like to credit Brand New Things to individuals and then have done with them, and Brand New Genres require us to be okay with lots of people saying "hey, this new thing is pretty cool, I'll do it too." My most pessimistic fear is that fast-moving information and criticism actually sort of retard that, and that a potentially broad and flexible and vibrant new field could get a year underway and then people would start saying "dude, that's so last year, we need some back-to-basics rock'n'roll again.")

Suffocating from patchouli and smoke
Here's the fifty-first song that he wrote
About the girl who split fifty weeks ago, oh yeah..
And there's a weight real heavy down there on his shoulders
The patented moves growing colder...
The seventh chord just keeps gettin' older..

Oh my soul, jus hit me if i get on a roll
But this all sounded so good in the bedroom cold oh yeah...
But it's only a 2am tune
With a bridge that he lifted from "My Aim is True"
From the set list drinks to the practice room oh yeah..

And he knows just as sure as his microphone stinks
There's a change comin' thru and he aint goin' home alone tonight
Pipin' solo is it me or is the room gettin' colder
Oh, we're goin' down, but don't it sound sweet
Feel the dust buildin' up at our feet

Long live rock and long live You Am I

How exactly is rock in any way related to the lineage of microhouse, UK garage rap, dancehall reggae, or perhaps most germane to absolutely closing down this line of argument, the Matthew Herbet Big Band? I like rock, but in general only old rock - 99.999 per cent of new rock bores the living crap out of me...

Oh, and Africa too.

And in Ted Leo's heart.

That Bryan Adams song scott quoted only makes me want to punch him more. Bryan, I mean. I've gotten over my scott-punching phase.

It is that simple. Get over yourself.

Can't help you with the Matthew Herbet Big Band, as I've never heard of them, but all of the others lead back to R&B in one way or another, and only a racist or a terminal guitar-hater would try to keep R&B outside of rock and roll ("rock and roll" as a musical term pretty much started out as a racial-stigma-free term for R&B anyway - yeah, I know it didn't remain stigma-free for long). And don't even think of going off into "but I'm talking about ROCK which is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from ROCK AND ROLL" 'cause that's utter utter bullshit - again like saying bebop is an entirely separate genre from jazz.

You can't even sing or play an instrument
So you just scream instead
You're living for an image
So you got five hundred women in your bed
Rock an Roll is dead
But it's real hard to be yourself
When you're living with those demons
In your head
Rock an Roll is dead
Rock an Roll is dead
Rock an Roll is dead

Anyone who is going to declare something like rock and roll, which is obviously a major part of an incredible number of people's lives 'dead' is being arrogant and refusing to see outside of a) themselves and/or b) their critical agenda.

(Forgive me, but I haven't read the thread yet. Now I will.)

Of course. They can do whatever the fuck they want to because they are artists. Why should every artist have to work towards some kind of movement, or in an effort to make historians' jobs easier?

The big problem you're dealing with is the problem of treating rock musicians are this huge monolithic group who all share a similar set of artistic goals, and rock audiences as a similarly monolithic group with the same set of aesthetics and expectations.

Let's beat you with the Obvious Stick: ROCK MUSIC AND ROCK FANS AND ROCK MUSICIANS ARE NOT ALL THE SAME.

The big problem you're dealing with is the problem of treating rock musicians as this huge monolithic group who all share a similar set of artistic goals, and rock audiences as a similarly monolithic group with the same set of aesthetics and expectations.

Matthew, I hope you realize that I personally wasn't remotely saying that I thought musicians shouldn't continue working with possibilities dating back to the 60's (or whenever).

The monolithic point is okay, I guess, but I think it's still reasonable to talk about a genre and how it is positioned in relation to the rest of society (which is too monolithic itself, I guess, since rock's place in different cultures will be different).

The same lazy, poorly informed answers that people give about rock music certainly can be applied to hip hop and electronic musics. If you don't have much investment in something, it's pretty damned easy to call it dead.

Maybe it's time for some people to realize that their lack of investment and involvement is their own problem, and not the music or the culture's fault.

Basic criteria for a vibrant artform (off the top of my head) -

- Has large, enthusiastic, committed audience which is self-renewing (i.e. not primarily the same people who were listening to it, say, 10 years ago).

- Is artistically self-renewing. Slightly harder to define but I would say the two 'vital signs' are i) examples of the artform generally show marked differences and developments from examples of the same artform at an earlier period (say 10 years, again); ii) if that artform has a 'canon' of critically acclaimed work, recent works are consistently being added to that canon.

By these criteria I think rock isn't moribund, FWIW.

But as Matthew says a lot of people - perhaps a majority of its audience - grow out of rock (the same applies to every other kind of popular music, pretty much). I certainly have. Matthew angrily places the blame for this on the people who've grown out of it, but isn't it a limitation of an artform if a high percentage of its audience get bored of it?

Children's lit is interesting in that a lot of adults - if they have children - need to keep a fairly well-developed aesthetic sense of it for reading to their own kids and encouraging them to read.

Do I like your opinions more currently, becasue you have chosen a Spanish-sounding screen name? ;)

FWIW, the (musical) racism I'm talking about usually comes from people on the guitar-rock side trying to keep R&B/hip hop/disco/etc out of rock and roll history (i.e. not an attack on you, Dave).

I fully agree with this. I much prefer the jerk who says "rock is rubbish" to the jerk who says "rock is dead", 'cause the former has no pretense of ever having been into it in the first place and is expressing personal taste rather than some despicable this-music-is-so-2-hours-ago attitude

(also: but Tico, you love Dylan and the Smiths, whatarethey,polka? etc etc etc) (on the other hand, there IS that Rolling Stones problem...)

hmmm...posted in 2003...surely some mashups of this came out?