Token Idiots in the History of Music

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

http://www.onthe.net.au/~dikkii/diatribe7.htm

Apart from the historical approach to the developments in modern music that led to the likes of Bez et al,I was particularly taken with the author's suggestion that conductors were token idiots.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Thursday, 19 June 2003 00:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Our college noise trio was entirely comprised of token idiots and we had very little success. However I suppose if all of us were idiots that makes us rather un-token, doesn't it?

Gez Varley: Token idiot to Mark Bell in LFO

Karl Bartos/Wolfgang Flur: Token idiots for Ralf und Florian

and of course the Human League, an inspiration for token idiots everywhere.

― Millar (Millar), Thursday, 19 June 2003 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

gary young

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 19 June 2003 01:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Millar, I wasn't so sure about Gez Varley and Karl Bartos (or even Wolfi). Here are my reasons:

Gez Varley - LFO gradually became, ugh, 'intelligent' as his involvement dropped (as ascertained by song credits), until, finally, they sounded like rancid pus. Meanwhile, Gez continued to make (and still makes) storming tracks as G-Man on a variety of labels. I say, he's the more talented of the two'

Karl Bartos co-wrote most of Kraftwerk's best record, "Computer World".

Wolfgang joined them when they were crap hiipies with flutes and they instantly became great. Then he left them, and they haven't released a record since. His drumming on Trans Europe and Metal and Metal makes those tracks.

But the Human League? - an inspiration for token idiots everywhere, as you say. They even had a slide projector person in the band! Magnificent. How many of Chumbawamba were token idiots? It's hard to say.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Thursday, 19 June 2003 01:59 (twenty-two years ago)

the slide projector guy eventually BECAME the driving force of Human League, wrote all their hit tunes, and the other two guys became Heaven 17. Thus.

Gez Varley more talented than Mark Bell? OK I'm not getting into this

― Millar (Millar), Thursday, 19 June 2003 02:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Andy Fletcher: token idiot for Depeche Mode? He's wholly useless musically, but functions as their business manager and apparently keeps Gore on an even, functioning keel.

I've always wondered about the division of labour and ideas between Bob Stanley and Pete Wiggs of St. Et. I'm not suggesting that either of them are idiots, but I do wonder what each could do independently.

― derrick (derrick), Thursday, 19 June 2003 04:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Sometimes someone will play at being the token idiot when they aren't. This appears to have happened with the Pet Shop Boys.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Thursday, 19 June 2003 04:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Bob is the ideas man and Wiggs gets the job done, if i had to take a guess at the labour division.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 19 June 2003 04:36 (twenty-two years ago)

i think that Peter Criss ought to be mentioned here.

― Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 19 June 2003 04:50 (twenty-two years ago)

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:pLhIiEpQxfIC:www.terrypaulbroadhurst.com/rocknsouls/images/musicians/jones_howard1.jpg

Jed Hoile, mime

― Paul in Santa Cruz (Paul in Santa Cruz), Thursday, 19 June 2003 05:07 (twenty-two years ago)

"And there is a band called Pavement from Chapel Hill, North Carolina"

???

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 19 June 2003 05:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Andy Fletcher: token idiot for Depeche Mode?

Yeah, I'll go with that. Allegedly Gore runs every song past him and if Fletcher sez it's good then Gore knows he's got something (and based on his track record it's a sound partnership).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

also, this guy is apparently unaware Flav did more than 'dance like a madman'(???)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 19 June 2003 05:13 (twenty-two years ago)

>Roxy Music had Eno

?!?

Andy Mackay's sideburns are gonna be SO jealous...

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Thursday, 19 June 2003 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

nor is Pavement from Chapel Hill, NC ... unless whatever little town in northern California from whence they sprang was moved there when no-one was looking.

i take back my nomination of peter criss ... compared to the antics of gene and ace, and paul's legendary foxy-dancing and stage banter, peter was as close as they came to po-faced earnestness!

― Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 19 June 2003 05:23 (twenty-two years ago)

alex from blur to thread

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 19 June 2003 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)

nor is there any mention of the King of All Token Idiots ... Andrew Ridgley! (i certainly can't think of what other function Andrew Ridgley had, at least by the time Wham! got to America.)

― Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 19 June 2003 05:25 (twenty-two years ago)

He must have done something Tad judging by the grievous quality of most of GM's solo stuff beyond the first few singles.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 19 June 2003 06:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i think ridgley just told george to not wank in public restrooms ... if that helped george to keep his wank off the records!

― Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 19 June 2003 06:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex is the best songwriter in Blur, based on "Murder on the Dancefloor".

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 19 June 2003 07:01 (twenty-two years ago)

But within the band, he's definitely the "idiot". Unless Damon's dancing around on a car roof in the dusk for "inspiration".

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 19 June 2003 07:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex is the best songwriter in Blur, based on "Murder on the Dancefloor".

I fear I'm just abbout to make a total fool of myself here, but...are you suggesting Alex "La Fringe" James is responsible for rhombus-face's finest moment to date?

If so, my faith in my own taste has been thoroughly restored...now if only he could get Jennifer Ellison to sing "Tabitha's Island" we can all die happy!

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:51 (twenty-two years ago)

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR...

OK, I agree, Alex *played the part of* the idiot within Blur. Meaning, that he played The Fool as foil to deflect the tension between Damon and Graham, to defuse friction between each other. But he was hardly a fool, either musically or whatever else.

Wasn't Mixerman talking about people who fulfill this role within bands? Bitchslap had Dumbass/Cotton (whatever his name was) that they ALL hated to keep them from REALLY hating the important people in the band.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:54 (twenty-two years ago)

So if you dedicate your life to becoming a public laughingstock in order that two egomaniacs in a mildly succesful indie band won't argue then that's not being a fool? *ducks*

― dave q, Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:59 (twenty-two years ago)

*MILDLY* successful? When the Brazen Hussies have several albums at number one, I'll take criticism from you.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex didnt wrote Murder On The Dancefloor nor produced, he did wrote and produced some other tracks on the SEB cd wich are ok, but not near MOTD(wich i think is Greg Alexander)

― Chupa-Cabras (vicc13), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:10 (twenty-two years ago)

greg alexanders band(whatever theyre called) were all token idiot except him

― Chupa-Cabras (vicc13), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:13 (twenty-two years ago)

pardon me, i'm not completely up on my Happy Mondays lore, but did Bez ever get his ass WHUPPED for dancing like that?

if not, he should have.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought there weren't any others in it except him.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:26 (twenty-two years ago)

there were some other guys playing with him on the videos didnt it?

― Chupa-Cabras (vicc13), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually I kind of feel bad for Blur now, they could release some unimaginably revolutionary masterwork and they'd still be a 'poor man's R*d**h**d', they've kind of become the Alan Parsons Project to R'head's PF

― dave q, Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:33 (twenty-two years ago)

the guy in Madness that didn't do anything

― Evan (Evan), Thursday, 19 June 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

The guy from N*E*R*D who does the skits

― ss, Thursday, 19 June 2003 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

From the Blue Aeroplanes:
*Wojtek Dmochowski - Dance (Credited on records too)
Velvet Underground:
*Gerard Melanga - Whips

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 19 June 2003 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

the dancer in the Mighty Mighty Bosstones, who finally quit a few years back

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 19 June 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Dronerock bands always had the girl "playing" keyboards token idiot - Kate Radley, Zia McCabe, so of course, The Lollies had to have one. Where can I get one again? Hrmmm, I wonder.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 19 June 2003 14:37 (twenty-two years ago)

get Graham Coxon to do it, he's probably not busy

― dave q, Thursday, 19 June 2003 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Like Lori Partridge. Or Tracey Partridge. Or Davey Jones.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 19 June 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Terrence Trent Darby comes to mind.
I always thought Dave Gahan was Depeche Mode's token idiot.
D'arcy of the pumpkins. or was she just the token crackwhore?

― Felcher (Felcher), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Krist Novoselic

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Linda McCartney

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

All of Fat Les.

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

>But it was the Stones who took the concept of a token idiot to an apotheosis.

Wha?!? Everyone knows Bill Wyman was the Stones' Official Idiot, especially after marrying the teenaged Mandy Smith, followed by his son marrying her mother.

But damn, Ron Wood is sure trying hard...

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:29 (twenty-two years ago)

whoops, full quote:

>But it was the Stones who took the concept of a token idiot to an apotheosis. Brian Jones is lauded quite rightfully for his part in raising the concept of a token idiot above that of a curiosity. Jones is seen by token idiots everywhere as being the one to kick start the musical revolution that made everyone who was forming a band say: "I want a token idiot in my band."

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Marilyn Manson - terrible teen drivel.And very shocking, of course.

I don't think.

― russ t, Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

so of course, The Lollies had to have one. Where can I get one again? Hrmmm, I wonder.

Haha I think my friend played keyboards on a few dates with the lollies last year. She's an idiot.

Anyway. The guy from 13th Floor Elevators who makes the weird noise

― ss, Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

dr alex patterson comes to mind for some reason

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

*MILDLY* successful?

In Damon's scale of his dreams re: Blur these days, that's about right.

"Fuck, I stopped being famous! I gotta do something dancey."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Brent whatever the fuck his name is from www.pitchforkmedia.com
Morrissey
Axl Rose
Kim Fowley
Madonna
Ringo Starr
Bez
Cressa from the Stone Roses
Billy Bragg
James Brown's friend Charlie, who held his towel for him
the fat guy from the Pixies who never shut up
Keith Flint of the Prodigy
Suge Knight
Dr. Dre
Tanya Headon
Robert Christgau
You
Your band
Stephen Malkmus
Hewhocannotbenamed of the Dwarves
G.G. Allin
Keith Morris
Bob Dylan
Eric Clapton
Sinead O'Connor
Everett True
Robert Christgau
everybody who's ever been in a riot-grrl band
Courtney Love
Kenny G.
Michael Bolton
Prince
Andrew W.K.
Bono
Rivers Cuomo
Donald Fagen
Robert Christgau
Joni Mitchell
Mark E. Smith
Jack White
anybody who says "Put your hands in the air like you just don't care."
Lars Ulrich
Jonathan Davis
Jello Biafra
Kid Rock
Roger Waters
Trent Reznor
Gavin Rossdale
Fiona Apple
Natalie Merchant
Liz Phair
Thurston Moore
Kim Gordon
Brian Eno
Polly Jean Harvey
Bruce Springsteen
Robert Christgau
Robert Christgau

― Evan (Evan), Thursday, 19 June 2003 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

And Tipper Gore. And Joe Lieberman.

― Evan (Evan), Thursday, 19 June 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

And Steve Albini.

― Evan (Evan), Thursday, 19 June 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Dronerock bands always had the girl "playing" keyboards token idiot - Kate Radley, Zia McCabe, so of course, The Lollies had to have one.

Caaaaareful, Kate!

May I nominate Lol Tolhurst from The Cure? Yes I may.

ps. Evan, are you quite well? You seem a little cross about...something.

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Thursday, 19 June 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Surely you agree with me regarding the idiocy of everyone on my list! Except for Robert Christgau, of course, because I'm the only person in the entire world that realizes what a huge piece of self-congratulatory smug smarmy human scum shit he is. But other than that one exception, don't you agree???

How could I forget Michael Jackson? Should be #1.

I'm fine.

― Evan (Evan), Thursday, 19 June 2003 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

from:
http://www.pataphysics-lab.com/board/messages/18345.html

if it's true. from the Fall website:(an email sent to the website? or the band?)

A request for MES:

we are in a band called the fall from norfolk, va and we are signed to an independent label..just wanted to let you know....maybe you can change your name to the fall uk so it does not conflict..thanks for your time.......

slightly off topic... since the fall from norfolk are not historically considered idiots at large... but uh... this should be used as future evidence.
m.

― msp, Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Dave Davies

― Rem Lezar, Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Gah!

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

the fat guy from the Pixies who never shut up

yeah, he sucked! whatever happened to that dude, anyway? wasn't he the singer or sumpfin'?

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

nor is there any mention of the King of All Token Idiots ... Andrew Ridgley! (i certainly can't think of what other function Andrew Ridgley had, at least by the time Wham! got to America.)

During the recording of one late-period Wham LP, he apparently spent most of the session time playing the studio's video games.

The Residents, from what I've been told, had two token idiots during the Seventies...but they had other functions, as well.

― Christine 'Green Leafy Dragon' Indigo (cindigo), Thursday, 19 June 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

The guy with the flower round his neck from Flowered Up. Remember?

And the naked chick with Hawkwind.

Question: can you still play and be talented, even have significant artistic input, yet still be a token idiot? Cos Brian Eno and Brian Jones are mentioned as token idiots in that article. If so, I nominate the Mael brother in Sparks with the little moustache.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:41 (twenty-two years ago)

The guy with the flower round his neck from Flowered Up. Remember?

Barry Mooncult! Haha! But does idiot savant count?

"I like...Frrrench ones..."

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha I think my friend played keyboards on a few dates with the lollies last year. She's an idiot.

Is yer friend Roz? She's not an idiot! (Though her girlfriend may be an idiot. I may or may not be kidding.) She's lovely! We would have kept her, but the Rock of Travolta wanted her back! Sigh.

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I cannot believe nobody has mentioned Andrew Ridgeley yet.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:49 (twenty-two years ago)

nor is there any mention of the King of All Token Idiots ... Andrew Ridgley! (i certainly can't think of what other function Andrew Ridgley had, at least by the time Wham! got to America.)
-- Tad (llamasfu...), June 19th, 2003 7:25 PM.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:49 (twenty-two years ago)

much thanks to jbr, as always.

and welcome back, geir!

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Evan - Morrissey?

Idiot?

Errr...ok.

― russ t, Friday, 20 June 2003 08:26 (twenty-two years ago)

STIGMA!!!

"Ahh... It's early! Plenty o' time ta do drugs! Wait... I don't do drugs no more. Plenty of time ta do nuttin!"

(AF, MADBALL)

― dz, Friday, 20 June 2003 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

read a recent rapture piece comparing bez to the guy from rapture
that does the dance cowbell thing. huh?

― wigan, Friday, 20 June 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

http://i.ivillage.com/womn/photos/jcasablancas_200.jpg

It seems appropriate to put this picture here as well, for some reason.

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

see if you can find one of him rocking out all chairbound.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Brian Jones as the official Stone Token Idiot? This makes no sense?
Is he basing it on embarrasingly useless goofoid twirpness (ie Bez, Sid Vicious) or on intentional clowny sidekick comic value (Flava Flav, the Mothers of Invention)?
Then in both categories...wouldn't Mick Jagger -- and his scrawny, spastic chicken dancing freakazoid ass -- fill both niches much, buch better than the late Brian Jones?
In fact, wasn't it Brian Jones who tried prevent "Satantic Majesties Request"...and wasn't it Jagger who pushed that initative through?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Sunday, 22 June 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Lord C, I think the ppoint here is that Mick Jagger isn't a _token_ idiot. He's an idiot. That's different.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 23 June 2003 01:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Ouch.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 23 June 2003 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.