"Real Music" is a Myth.

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so maybe it's not quite destroying music. Real music...
Okay, I'm going to stop you right there, and remind you that the opposite of "Real" is "Imaginary"
When you say that you hate Genre X because it is not "Real Music", you are saying that Genre X is "Imaginary Music"; which is a nonsensical idea. There is no such thing.
Even Spinal Tap is Real Music. You can go to an actual music store, pick up the genuine cd with your non-virtual fingers, take it to your legitimately existant home, the the CD in your factual CD player and authentic sounds will emerge from your (hypothetical) speakers.

Now, granted, I am a believer in "authenticity"; the notion that if you sing about (love|the ghetto life|cowboys|Jesus) you had better had first-hand expierence with (love|the ghetto life|cowboys|Jesus); but I don't think MUSIC or any genre thereof can be automatically Authentic in an of itself. Only specific artists. No genre is completely free of phonies, fakers and Fakirs*, so no Genre can be completely pure.

Side note: Now, as for "Manufactured", I think thats a poorly chosen word when applied to music. "Interchangabiliy" probably works better.

(* = 'Fakirs' applies to music from the Indian Subcontinent only.)

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:32 (twenty-two years ago)

wow!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:36 (twenty-two years ago)

course it's fuckin' imaginary, you can't 'touch' it can you. get some more coffee in you man

dave q, Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.penguin.net.nz/credits/albatross.jpg

Jon Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)

course it's fuckin' imaginary, you can't 'touch' it can you. get some more coffee in you man
Sarcastic rejoiner: I can touch music. If you play it loud enough, it creates a breeze.
Realistic rejoiner: "Imaginary Music" would be a hallucination. Only crazy people hear "Imaginary Music"; All other music is perceptible regardless of your mental faults.
(*sips coffee*)

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:41 (twenty-two years ago)

the notion that if you sing about (love|the ghetto life|cowboys|Jesus) you had better had first-hand expierence with (love|the ghetto life|cowboys|Jesus);

What about authors who write about things they'vre no first hand links with. Are you willing to lose Alice in Wonderland, The Matrix, Star Wars, ET, The Ilyiad, Harry Potter...

mei (mei), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:42 (twenty-two years ago)

what about the builders over the road ? THE WORLD"S GREATEST EINSTURZENDE NEUBAUTEN TRIBUTE BAND. they do not realise this.
also: i imagine music. i am not crazy

bob snoom, Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

But George Lucas IIIIISSSSS a Jedi Master!

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

but bob...do you hallucinate music?

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I live with a Jedi Master. We dream up imaginary music all the time. It would be the greatest music/soundart in the world, ever. If only we could actually create/record it.

kate (kate), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:45 (twenty-two years ago)

face on a bearded neck

bob snoom, Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Authenticity? Meh! Heidigger was the world's worst faker!

kate (kate), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I live with a Jedi Master. We dream up imaginary music all the time. It would be the greatest music/soundart in the world, ever. If only we could actually create/record it.
Use the Force, Kate. Plus some microphones and a recording studio.
face on a bearded neck
...whua!?

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.lostcarpark.com/images/news/transformers.jpg

Jon Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Next you'll be telling me there's no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny or Grebt Pumpkin.

face on a bearded neck

Now I have a new pet name for Handsome Jedi Knight!

kate (kate), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

the myth of real music is that the king of real music (hereafter to be known as NAKATORAK) gets in his longboat with some of his buddies and sets off to find his father KOTNOTON who has the magic sword NAKATORAK needs to defeat choreographed dancers from another thread. KOTNOTON lives in a castle at the bottom of the sea cos that's where the afterlife is and he's been dead awhile now. NAKATORAK first encounters BEN the dreaded sea-serpent mariners have feared for centuries

bob snoom, Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Who cares as long as you enjoy it, eh?

(Now to set about proving that my enjoyment of Manitoba is more real than your enjoyment of Busted...)

Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i think they defeat it by going "toot toot" on a saxophone or something i don't know

bob snoom, Thursday, 19 June 2003 11:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Lord Custos enjoys Busted?? Christ we are getting somewhere!

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm guessing Harrumph! means something like the albums of 'gorgeous' American youth written by Swedish men and managed by Orlando moguls in which the "artists" have absolutely no input as to their appearance, dance steps, singing, lyrics, etc. I suppose stuff like that does SEEM less real...

DW, Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:01 (twenty-two years ago)

And puppetry is imaginary as well!

kate (kate), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:02 (twenty-two years ago)

As is acting, but that's actually TRUUUUUUE!

kate (kate), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:02 (twenty-two years ago)

It is true that acting is imaginary. That didn't make sense, did it?

kate (kate), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"And puppetry is imaginary as well!"

That's just what the puppet masters want you to think.

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:07 (twenty-two years ago)

i am starting a metallica tribute band called HARVESTER OF PUPPETS.
you can imagine we are the real metallica. (all lies not within my capabilities)

bob snoom, Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:10 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/entertainment/images/george_lucas150.jpg

ribbit. ribbit. all a children's story, innit, so fuck the plot. ribbit.

Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:19 (twenty-two years ago)

NECKSHAVER!

bob snoom, Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

custos, i dont really agree with you about your authenticity point. i think sometimes an artist with fascinations for a life and way of thinking that they weren't exactly born into or haven't even experienced directly can be far more interesting, theres gonna be a certain passion there, a certain dream-like aspect to it this way.

they can also bring things from their own background into it, and create something far more original. take bob dylan. robert zimmerman was from a comfortable jewish background. by the time of his early 20s, he was bob dylan, and was singing like he was right out of some deserted western ghost town or a dustbowl, with a twang and with passion that you could feel. however he brought a lot of originality to the table alongside this, and was far more than a traditional folk singer. he may have used folk music, and folk imagery to convey his messages, but his message, and way of expressing it, had a literary intelligence to it, and his performance was significantly enhanced by the strength of the material. perhaps his love for early rock and roll , little richard, buddy holly etc (which he might not have experienced if he'd lived out in the sticks) helped influence a lot of his own musical innovation (you gotta admit, no one can really sound quite like bob dylan). im not sure any of this would have been possible without his contrasting upbringing (the middle class emphasis on eduction etc).

similar arguments can be made for a wide variety of other artists. captain beefheart, will oldham, john fahey (who's influences were all over the place, like indian classical etc) and others have all been influenced by music from backgrounds that they werent necessarily born into or even experienced directly, and have bought a hell of a lot more originality to music than a lot of artists that are just born into a certain musical background, experienced it all their lives, and made music almost exactly like it (this is essentially what is crap about most of shit that comes out of the commercial country scene these days, and is exactly whats shit about so many average indie pop acts.) even if you hate the artists ive mentioned, i hope you recognise they're pretty distinctive, and that their work has passion, and therefore the accusation of "fake" doesnt stick. the feelings the music inspires are as real as it gets, for me anyway

in other words, you create your own authenticity, its not something you get from your background

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

When you say that you hate Genre X because it is not "Real Music", you are saying that Genre X is "Imaginary Music"

If this was an SAT question, the answer would be "False".

dleone (dleone), Thursday, 19 June 2003 12:58 (twenty-two years ago)

"Real Music" is to "Imaginary Music" as "Eating" is to ____________.

A-Baking
B-Vomiting
C-Starving
D-Food Science

dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 19 June 2003 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

What about Actual Music?
In Quebec they have a fesitival of "Musique Actuelle" every year with John Zorn and his buddies. How does this apply?
If Real Music is a Myth, does that make the organizers/participants of the Actual Music Festival Zeus-esque?

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 19 June 2003 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Lord Custos enjoys Busted?? Christ we are getting somewhere!
Actually, I keep hearing (from ILM) the name "Busted" and have no idea what it is.

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Bob Shaw...you raise an interesting point.
You say "i think sometimes an artist with fascinations for a life and way of thinking that they weren't exactly born into or haven't even experienced directly can be far more interesting, theres gonna be a certain passion there, a certain dream-like aspect to it this way."
So I gather you are saying that even if someone doesn't live a certain lifestyle, they still can use it a muse? Okay. Sounds workable, especially after using your Dylan analogy.
On a slightly different tangent: Do you think that one of the aspects that make an "inauthentic" artist inauthentic is the fact that they only pretend to like something cool (and more importantly, don't do a good job of hiding that they are pretending) for no other reason than it's coolness factor....and the mystical belief they can get some of that coolness factor to rub off onto their sorry, talentless asses?

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think it's pretend to *like*, but pretend to *be*.

< /pedant >

kate (kate), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

i think you're on to something there custos. anything thats just a style exercise without any passion or talent, now thats what id call "inauthentic".

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

either works, kate. either works.
(Though, granted, A phony pretending to be something they're not is a bit more obvious than someone pretending to like something they don't. Only a mind-reader can know if a phony's tastes are genuine or not.)

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

but then again one mans style exercise is another mans bonafide genius. a lot of bands i call boring style exercises, maybe theres talent there and im just missing it, maybe my brains not in tune with it or something.

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

so it's purely subjective then?

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess no one can stop you, Custos, but why do you always start whole new threads to respond to stuff on other threads?

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, if you just post to the original thread, I'm sure some of us will read your answer. It goesn't need to be a marquee feature or anything.

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Everything I say is more important than what anyone else has to say.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Musicians meander, dance, jump and prance around on stage singing little songs and playing little instruments. Unless you sing about singing and prancing, how can music ever be Authentic to you? If you sing about your life, your struggles, and your experiences, then you're siging about past events. you're telling stories. they might be true stories but they're still aimed at people's imaginations, told after the fact, and that's as "authentic" as music is ever going to get. So why nitpick whether a story is true or false or told by the main character or handed off to someone else?

Discounting other kinds of music for not being Real or Authentic is like stopping someone in the middle of a ghost story to say, "Wait, is this true? Did it happen to you? Recently? No? Then I don't care." It's retarded.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Searching Authentic music for the purposes of some kind of anthropological pursuit is bad enough. Only listening to what you think is Authentic music for the purpose of "keeping it real" yourself is even worse. Real people obviously have no imaginations (imaginations are inauthentic) and so they have no business listening to any music whatsoever. The only music authentic people can listen to is the music they happen to overhear being played by somone else... someone "inauthentic," with an imagination.

Arguing that you'd rather people refer to a song's subject matter as "authentic" instead of calling it "real music" because "imaginary music can't exist unless it's a hallucination" is the least authentic musical pursuit i can imagine.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

But can Authentic Musical Pursuits even be Imagined? Wouldn't they be fake - har har. This is silly.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah reality is often pretty boring. musicians with no imagination should just go away. ever read master and margarita? now that book's got a lot of imagination, and even somehow thru the wild magic of it all says everything it needs to about everything. beautiful. thats the kind of thing im lookin for in music too i guess

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess no one can stop you, Custos, but why do you always start whole new threads to respond to stuff on other threads?
Because the thread that put that in my head (originally) was the 850-post DMB thread, and *this* thread loads much much quicker.

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 19 June 2003 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

also, I didn't want to throw the "When will we get tired of manufactured music" thread off-topic. It'd probably be safer to leave that one to deal with the "manufactured" aspect; this thread sticks JUST to the whole myth of "Real" music (which made me ask the obvious question..."real as opposed to what? Where's the Imaginary music?").

because "imaginary music can't exist unless it's a hallucination" is the least authentic musical pursuit i can imagine.
the comment about "imaginary music == hallucinations" is only offered as a retort to any nitwit who loves talking about how his fave is "real music". Such as this:
Nitwit: I don't like (x)...I prefer Real Music...and what you like isn't real music! Blah Blah Blah!
You: So...my faves are imaginary? Did I hallucinate them?

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 19 June 2003 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

but you answer your own question. The opposite of Real could be Imaginary, or it could be Fake. Then you say you're a believer in "authenticity." Authentic and Real are synonyms in this context. So the opposite of "Real Music" is "Inauthentic Music," which you appear to agree with. You just don't like it when people use the word Real to describe that kind of music. Does "Keep it Real" annoy you just as much, for the same reason?

Stuart (Stuart), Friday, 20 June 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

You just don't like it when people use the word Real to describe that kind of music.
"Authentic" in a music criticism sense means something specific. "Real" is much, much broader. By looking at the opposites, you'll see the huge chasm between "Authentic"/"Real" and "Inauthentic"/"Imaginary"

Authentic == It Exists and openly and honestly espouses an (old-fashioned?|rockist?) ideology
Real == It Exists.
Inauthentic == It Exists but only pretends (usually clumsily) to have an ideological stance.
Imaginary == It does not Exist.

Does "Keep it Real" annoy you just as much, for the same reason?
Yes, but for a different reason. Nowadays, "Keep it Real" is an empty buzzphrase. Its the rapper equivalent of a Suit saying "we're leveraging our synergies through our proactive, forward facing paradigm."; All the rappers say it, But I suspect they don't mean the same thing by it.

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 20 June 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think the kinds of people you're complaining about mean "music that exists" when they say "real music." They may mean "actual" music as opposed to an imitation of music, in which case they're using a special definition of "music." A musical pastiche is still music. Or they may mean a specific kind of music that is either authentic or worthwhile or legitimate to them in some special way, but they don't mean "music that exists" the way you mean it.

Stuart (Stuart), Friday, 20 June 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I know, i know. But some nimrod referring to "their" music as "Real" music implies that everything they don't like is "not Real"; inferior and lacking in value.
"Real" is overly broad hyperbole, and a pompous concept. In essence, I feel about the phrase "Real Music" the same disgust that mark s seems to have towards the word "infl**nc*"...
(If I were mark s, I'd have probably said "Real Music Does Not Exist" and ended up perplexing the newbies.)

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 21 June 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)


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