Women who ****ed up great bands. (P-fork)

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

I have a feeling this is a bad idea to ask, but here goes -
So I'm reading the P-fork's article on the 20 worst post-band-breakup debacle albums and:
"The history of headstrong women who fucked up great bands goes in this order: Yoko Ono, Nancy Spungen, Brix Smith, Courtney Love. An earnest if flighty pop music fan, Laura Elise Smith met Fall singer Mark E. Smith at a Chicago gig on their 1983 tour-- one imagines the curt, dastardly M.E.S. was amused and increasingly enamored of her unchecked optimism and gall."
Please tell me, is he SERIOUS? It's like reading some of the more glaringly sexist about-the-author intros in the Norton Anthology of British Literature, when the writer casually mentions that the woman who ruined the life of this or that misunderstood Romantic poet was impetuous and headstrong, or something. Brix Smith, Mary Shelley, what's the difference?

― daria g (daria g), Friday, 20 June 2003 01:36 (twenty-two years ago)

The Beatles were broken up right when they were poised to really get awful. They were already at each others' throats. She did them a favor.

Also, "Walking On Thin Ice" = funky as hell

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 20 June 2003 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

that article is the biggest heap of fucking shit i've read in a long time.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, it's not very good is it.

It's not the quality or lack thereof of any of these bands' music that bothers me, nor is it the talent/no talent of any of the women.

It's that.. every now and then, even though I don't usually go to the trouble of calling others' attention to this sort of thing.. one is struck by a sexist cliche that's so familiar and boring that it has the paradoxical effect of standing out way more than it ever should, because you just can't believe anybody still believes this crap or would write it without irony. I mean, it could at least be an ENTERTAINING and ORIGINAL sexist remark.

― daria g (daria g), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:09 (twenty-two years ago)

"The history of headstrong women who fucked up great bands goes in this order: Yoko Ono, Nancy Spungen, Brix Smith, Courtney Love.

Dear Pitchfork, more boring plz

― Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Also: People read Pitchfork?

― Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Men who fucked up great bands: Sammy Hagar!

― JesseFox (JesseFox), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:17 (twenty-two years ago)

haha!

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, yeah Daria why even read that piece of shit?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah well, there was a link from Scrubbles.net (mentioned on ILX thread), so I followed. It's all my fault.

― daria g (daria g), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Next: 'Great' bands that women should break up.

― daria g (daria g), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Ooooh I am just waiting for Chris Ott's incoherent idiotic rant in response to this (be honest, you wrote this just to see if he'd go ape shit again, didn't you?) Begins popping popcorn.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:23 (twenty-two years ago)

more men who fucked up great bands!

doug yule -- ronnie james dio -- mike love -- slim dunlap

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:29 (twenty-two years ago)

doug yule

soooooo wrong.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:31 (twenty-two years ago)

do you like squeeze, then?

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, blame Lou. The Brix thing is fucking idiocy but we all know that.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:34 (twenty-two years ago)

haven't heard Squeeze, but third album is my favourite Velvets and Loaded is great too! I do in fact blame Lou.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:37 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously what kind of editorial schtaffen thinks this stuff is worth publishing, even on the web? Is it supposed to be edgy? Is it one of those scary ideas that never sees print because people in the rockcrit biz are too PC and afraid to be called out for blatant sexism? No, it's one of those things you overhear from two beers down at the indie club downstairs bar, and immediately after recognizing the subject of convo you determine (quite correctly) that the two unshaven cocksmokers discussing such topics are not worth paying any attention to - you leave your tip and return to the show with a quickness and try to forget about it.

ILM's apparent obsession with Pfork is the worst thing about it

― Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:40 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, I had a few just now and I'm easily GRRRRRRRR why do these fucks get free records and I don't ARGH.

― Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:41 (twenty-two years ago)

They only get free Cds so I don't care. And look, everyone hates them! Yay!

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Does Chris Ott post on ILM? I didn't think of that while posting the question, in all honesty - although I would be interested in what he'd say in reply.
I'm not down on Pitchfork in and of itself - I read their site at the very beginning and though I don't usually read it now, the only reason is that I don't have the same amount free time and the same indie-centric music tastes as I did when I was an undergrad working at the college radio station. Plus I tend now to want to digest all content on the Internet in batches of three sentences or less, so I rarely read full length reviews. :)
Millar, they get free records b/c they take the time to write about them in a public forum, and if not all the writing is quality, the fact that they're consistent and well-known means that a label - even a small one w/very little $ to use on CD giveaways - is probably more than happy to send a disc off to someone who they know is reliable enough to give it a listen and a review.

― daria g (daria g), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Me in stating the obvious shocker, I know.

― daria g (daria g), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:57 (twenty-two years ago)

It's just irksome whenever somebody sees fit to print something like this, or that Momus review (I'm not even familiar with Nick but that was atrocious) but then again why don't I have my own website then hmm

― Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 June 2003 02:58 (twenty-two years ago)

i was actually going to post something about that, but i've been getting ott all riled up lately without even trying.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 20 June 2003 03:17 (twenty-two years ago)

whatta scumbag

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 03:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Next: 'Great' bands that women should break up.
-- daria g (daria_gra...), June 20th, 2003.

Any woman out there able to break up REM? That'd be nice.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Friday, 20 June 2003 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Brix was the best thing about post 80's The Fall.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Friday, 20 June 2003 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Any woman out there able to break up REM? That'd be nice.

Maybe Morrissey can get back with Stipey!

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 04:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I was thinking Natalie "Headstrong" Merchant could give it a shot, but this conjures weird images of Buck, Stipe, Merchant, Billy Bragg, Mitch Easter, and Robyn Hitchcock finally forming the Fleetwood Mac style supergroup you know at least one of them's been dreaming of. (Buck = ingham, Stipe = Fleetwood, Merchant = Nicks, Bragg = C McVie, Easter = J McVie. Hitchcock = solo Nicks.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 June 2003 04:53 (twenty-two years ago)

What the hell? Obviously Buck is Fleetwood, and then now that I imagine "Go Your Own Way" Merchant is Buckingham and Stipe is Nicks. Without question.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 June 2003 05:04 (twenty-two years ago)

i would have said Easter or Hitchcock was Buckingham. or maybe the two combined (Easter writes mostly forgettable songs and i'm not aware that Hitchcock has ever produced anything)

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 20 June 2003 05:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh dear lord. I take back what I said about not being bothered about Pitchfork. Why are people still allowed to write crap like this in this day and age? (And besides, I bet they left out Kate Radley, didn't they?)

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:09 (twenty-two years ago)

The Pitchfork article doesn't even scratch the surface, what about at all the potentially great artists who are prevented from completing their masterworks because they have to do all their own cooking and laundry etc.? Back in the day you could just move in with somebody who would do all the shitwork (and offer unlimited praise to your genius), now chicks are all "I've got my own career to think about too!" etc., think of all the great stuff that'll never see the light of day!

― dave q, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"a man needs a maid," as neil young pointed out (and caught no small amount of flack!)

(no sexism meant here ... a creative female needs a maid, a secretary, an accountant [either gender] too!)

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, Dave Q, and you wonder why you've not got a girlfriend.

Dude, tell that to HSA. He is providing the roof over my head and doing my laundry while I muck about and make Electric Bubblegum Arkestras. I think that is very noble of him. Hurrah!

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I had a friend once who told me I needed a wife and a secretary. Man, I wish I had a wife. Where can I get one?

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:30 (twenty-two years ago)

that's the part you never see in all those movies about artists. you never see van gogh or picasso or ringo doing their laundry, sitting down to write the checks to pay the bills, clearing the clumps of hair out of the bathtub, etc.

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:33 (twenty-two years ago)

That's cause they don't. Have you ever actually SEEN an artist's house? Yeuch!

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:34 (twenty-two years ago)

that article is awful. sexism aside, its just boring. really fucking boring. i got no time for 4 page articles where the guy just lists stuff he don't like. the author must be like one of those guys who stands in front of you at concerts, wearing some sort of Neu! t-shit, because of course he's so much cooler than anyone else in the room, he can listen to Krautrock all day with ease, even when no one is around cept his dog cos you know he has to keep up his cred. i mean what would Rex think if he danced around in his slippers to Avril Lavigne again. anyway at the gig, he'll be talking loudly about how this album is sooo overrated, or about how they were better back in 96, when they only played post-ironic megadeath covers. in otherwords, the article, is self-satisfied, boring, and sheds no new light on anything really.

i'll stop typing before i get accused of the same

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, Dave Q, and you wonder why you've not got a girlfriend.

Er? I thought it was Dave Q being his usually scabrously sarcastic self.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:59 (twenty-two years ago)

You will give Dave Q the benefit of the doubt as to his kiddingness, but you won't give me the benefit of the doubt?

::weeps bitter tears::

And would you bloody GO TO BED, NED!!! When I'm starting to notice yer insomnia, that means it's bad.

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i was being perfectly serious about creative persons needing maids/secretaries/accountants/attorneys/whatever.

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Look, I know and I agree. The sexist part is that the Creative Person is always male and the maid/secretary/whathaveyou should always be female.

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:10 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone shd be female!!

wait did i say that out loud?

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, Jerry.

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, you give me too much credit. For the last couple weeks I've kept meaning to throw away the piss bottles in my room in case anybody sees them. However, yesterday I noticed that to all appearances it now looks like there's cola in the bottles, so I just left them.

― dave q, Friday, 20 June 2003 09:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Brix aka Laura Solinger met MES at a Valentine's Day Massacre party; MES was so filthy and unwashed that they made him hold a paper napkin around his beer glass. She did not ruin the Fall. MES is a cyclical sacker of musicians at the best of times and in any creative situation that produces diminishing returns.

NB Brix now has a boutique on Rivington Street in Shoreditch. But MES was never a 'real' shabby person anyway, when I met him in '85 he was wearing an Armani jumper, which he proudly pointed out.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:53 (twenty-two years ago)

'Great' bands that women should break up.

Gwyneth Paltrow to thread!

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:56 (twenty-two years ago)

no, see, gwen and chris are mating in order that their eventual copulation will be so media-ogre that it will explode the earth. or something like that.

― captain doom-e, Friday, 20 June 2003 09:58 (twenty-two years ago)

sex with coldplay must be dull

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Duller than Ballboy? I can't imagine...

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it says something about me that I was more upset by Ott's hamfisted fratboy disses of Felt/Denim in the article than I was at the very ugly sexism. Must realign priorities!

― pulpo, Friday, 20 June 2003 10:05 (twenty-two years ago)

ive never had sex with Ballboy

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:05 (twenty-two years ago)

haha laughs and points at bob shaw

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Neither have I. But they had that song about "sex with me is boring" so I took their word for it.

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:08 (twenty-two years ago)

ah right. you know i was once fairly sure the guy from coldplay was standing behind me at a gig once, i remember thinking at the time "god he's tall, hes probably hung like a bear, but i bet he's still lame in bed". in retrospect it was a pretty odd thought, and it might not even have been the same guy.

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, I've read the article. It's typical sad indiefan "mwah mwah mwah, my favourite bands had to go shite" twaddle of the sort that is often rather entertaining. (Though not anywhere near as good as that "500 bands we'd pay MONEY for them not release another record ever!")

I really don't understand the inclusion of this paragraph, though:

"The history of headstrong women who fucked up great bands goes in this order: Yoko Ono, Nancy Spungen, Brix Smith, Courtney Love.

What does this bit of blatantly sexist, not to mention historically completely inaccurate opinion have to do with anything else in the article?

I find the article interesting enough because I am interested in the dynamics and personality clashes of bands - realising that band breakups have as much of an effect on people's lives, emotions, bitterness, creative output as romantic breakups.

But that one bit of outright sexism completely negates the interest of the rest of the article for me. Instead of an interesting article about band politics and creative dynamics, it's reduced to a sad scared-of-women blah blah "she got to fuck him and I didn't" homoeroticphobic cliche.

Which is a shame. Ah well.

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 11:26 (twenty-two years ago)

it's reduced to a sad scared-of-women blah blah "she got to fuck him and I didn't" homoeroticphobic cliche

woh, has chris ott just been outed?

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Friday, 20 June 2003 11:46 (twenty-two years ago)

No, it's just a typical male indiefan reaction. They have these totally unadmitted (in most cases) homoerotic love affairs with their idols - e.g. Morrissey - and are DEVASTATED when a women dares to intervene. It's not that Chris Ott or anyone else gay, it's just something inherantly homoerotic in male fandom. I mean, the Male Gaze goes both ways!

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Surprise, surprise (not). P-fork is written (mostly) by fratboys into indie for fratboys into indie, so I would expect them to publish this kind of crap.

― Nicole (Nicole), Friday, 20 June 2003 11:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i'd agree with that kate. i'll admit to having a somewhat homoerotic obsession with morrissey, i think a lot of male smiths/morrissey fans do. its just men are taught to bottle these kinda things up behind macho facade, and it comes out as misogyny a lot of the time.

i was just kinda excited that we might have the first public closet outing ever on ilm (has it ever happened before?)

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Friday, 20 June 2003 12:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Ballboy are great. I feel I should just point that out. I haven't actually read the article or anything, but Ballboy are great.

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Friday, 20 June 2003 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

The Beatles ruined Yoko Ono, not the other way around.

― hstencil, Friday, 20 June 2003 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I like how the article disses BOTH Hurricane #1 AND Mojave 3!

And if this many of you dislike pitchfork, what are you opinions of the gossip page at buddyhead.com?

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Friday, 20 June 2003 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Ott forgot to include that chick who *almost* broke up Spinal Tap.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Friday, 20 June 2003 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

on a tangent to all this pitchfork stuff -

http://www.theonion.com/onion3923/college-radio_dj.html

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Friday, 20 June 2003 13:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"The history of headstrong women who fucked up great bands goes in this order: Yoko Ono, Nancy Spungen, Brix Smith, Courtney Love"

Course the guys had nothing to do with it, don't you know these women were all kidnappers and rapists?*

*(In the event of Libel proceeding, IAM BEING SARCASTIC!)

― mei (mei), Friday, 20 June 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

It's true. They held guns to yer idols' heads and forced them to suck.

Especially Kate Radley. Except in her case, it's true. Grrrrrrrrr.

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

You will give Dave Q the benefit of the doubt as to his kiddingness, but you won't give me the benefit of the doubt?

D'oh!

And would you bloody GO TO BED, NED!!! When I'm starting to notice yer insomnia, that means it's bad.

? But I was asleep and now I'm at work! Curious.

Ned, you give me too much credit.

I'm odd that way.

P-fork is written (mostly) by fratboys into indie for fratboys into indie

I heart Nicole.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I am just realising what "held guns to their heads and forced them to suck" sounds like and dammit, that's not what I meant! If I'm going to be dirty on ILM, dammit, I wish I were intentionally dirty!

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha ha! From the Onion article:

I'm always mixing it up," Haley said. "In my opinion, the other guys here cling to their niche too much. Like, Scott [Schefter] always plays a lot of psychobilly, and Tim [Arbus] plays a ton of emo. But with me, you never know what you're gonna get. I might play something like the new Sigur Rós, then turn around and play something off the new Oxes record. Or maybe even Lovecup's 'Hi Pazoo,' which is one of the best songs from the mid-'90s Champaign scene. I challenge my audience, and that's why people respond to my show. My success should prove to other radio stations that people don't want to be spoon-fed their music."

This sums up p-fork perfectly.

― Nicole (Nicole), Friday, 20 June 2003 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

the college radio dj persona is a pretty close fit for a lot of pitchfork writers, and a lot of indie rock writers elsewhere too.

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

held guns to their heads and forced them to suck

Lydia Lunch to thead!

(did she ruin a band too?)

― hstencil, Friday, 20 June 2003 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

How about we list women who f--ked up great bands by being IN them. Like say, uh, Susanna Hoffs.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

(did she ruin a band too?)

Ask Jim Foetus! But it's debatable if there was anything there to ruin...

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd rather not ask him anything, he's creepy-looking and old (but apparently he likes Sightings!).

― hstencil, Friday, 20 June 2003 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

> Maybe Morrissey can get back with Stipey!

eeeekkkk!
Oh, wait, you said "Stipey", not STRIPEY. Phew!

― stripey, Friday, 20 June 2003 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, that Onion article is top. That photo looks exactly like my old college station's office.
I never thought I had an audience really, I did get a kick out of putting on PiL or Big Black and walking around the student union to find that, as usual, someone had turned off all the speakers.

Oh, and can some woman please break up the Chili Peppers already? Not that they're a great band, but I don't want to hear them again, ever.

― daria g (daria g), Friday, 20 June 2003 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Daria, there are just some things you have to take into your own hands. < /double entendre>

― NA. (Nick A.), Friday, 20 June 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

"The history of headstrong women who fucked up great bands goes in this order: Yoko Ono, Nancy Spungen, Brix Smith, Courtney Love.
Yoko: Okay, I can understand that one.
Nancy: No...I suspect that the Sex Pistols would've broken up when they did with or without her help. I doubt she had any real impact.
Brix: Are you psycho? Their more pop-friendly and accessible stuff came from the Brix period. Besides, the Fall are still around, so including her in the list is dumb.
Courtney: Before Kurt died, he was doing a fine job of destroying himself (granted, she helped...); Its only after the band broke up that she really started to get problematic.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 20 June 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Has anyone else noticed that pitchfork has recently started running a lot of reviews by females? There was none for a long time except for Kristin Sage-Rockerman (which sounds like a completely made-up name)
I bet Chris Ott thought he would avoid criticisms of being sexist by calling the women "headstrong" instead of "bitchy". I can't believe that anyone writing professionally about music for any publication outside of USA Today or Entertainment Weekly would stoop to oldest, most untrue, most boring, dumbest cliche of "Yoko broke up the Beatles"

― Magic City (ano ano), Friday, 20 June 2003 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

You can understand how a woman could break up a band of four individuals who weren't even talking to each other? By the time Yoko got there, she was simply an extension of what John was. I don't understand why people are mad about this. It was a good time to break up, what was the last song that they actually colaborated on? Why did they need to be a band any more? who would want to hear an album that goes form Mother to Maybe I'm Amazed?

― Magic City (ano ano), Friday, 20 June 2003 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha i'll pass along to sage the next time i talk to her that she's made up.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 20 June 2003 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, Sage has a cool name.

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 20 June 2003 18:28 (twenty-two years ago)

cool last real last names:

savage
rockermann
lawless

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 20 June 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

dave q has a much, much better idea for an article. hey Dave, let's start an online critmag and get free music and backstage passes what say

― Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 June 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

The Mojave 3 bashing didn't even make sense. To sell out, they became the "British Mazzy Star"?

Mazzy Star had one semi-hit single (it barely reached the Top 40, right?) and never even a gold album.

So even if you were to agree with the "British Mazzy Star" label, how in the hell is that selling out?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 20 June 2003 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

In their world, "selling out" != pimping for commercial success but = the collapsing of once held ideals for another set of aesthetic ideals? < /hazarding a guess>

― Cozen (Cozen), Friday, 20 June 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Pitchfork to thread to define exactly what they mean by "selling out"...

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 21 June 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.