Prizing Ephemerality

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Some of us do. Do you? Why? Or - why not?

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

i live for the now

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Because to do otherwise would ignore the fleeting nature of consciousness and being.

― Soren Kierkegaard, Friday, 18 July 2003 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

One of the greatest joys in pop music is the what is that? moment, which is, alas, eternally ephemeral.

― Ess, Friday, 18 July 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I suspect those who say "yes" will have a different definition of "ephemeral" than those who say "no."

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Kierkegaard OTM.

― pete b. (pete b.), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Most men pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that they hurry past it.

― Soren Kierkegaard, again (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

um, seriously though: i prize it because one of the most exciting feelings you can have when listening to pop music is (i think), the knowledge that a LOT of other people in the world are listening to/feeling the exact the same thing as you, at that moment. tiny, isolated moments of connection between millions of strangers. these moments disappear pretty quickly but they're so special they seem more worthwhile than almost anything else i think. (this whole 'universal connection' thing actually = why pop moves me in a wider sense too)

― pete b. (pete b.), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

But doesn't it do a disservice to the music you love to suggest that its pleasures are ephemeral?

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

But there's a difference between saying it's the pleasures that are ephemeral and the experience as a whole on first encounter (which seems to be the argument more). That said I don't agree with Pete's stance -- the idea just never suggested itself.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

no.

oh yeah, also because loving something ephemeral = a big fuck-you to the cosmos, death, God, all of that.

― pete b. (pete b.), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Hm, well actually I tend to think it's the verities that are most life-affirming. But that's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

but can you quantify yr love for the ephemeral?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Last night I had a dream about you
In this dream I'm dancing right beside you
And it looked like everyone was having fun
the kind of feeling I've waited so long
Don't stop come a little closer
As we jam the rythm gets stronger
There's nothing wrong with just a little little fun
We were dancing all night long
The time is right to put my arms around you
You're feeling right
You wrap your arms around too
But suddenly I feel the shining sun
Before I knew it this dream was all gone
Ooh I don't know what to do
About this dream and you
I wish this dream comes true
Ooh I don't know what to do
About this dream and you
We'll make this dream come true

Why don't you play the game?
Why don't you play the game?

― pete b. (pete b.), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

it is only possible to love it now, you cant know you will love it in 10 years time? you might think you will, but how do you know? so perhaps is better not to worry about 10 years time, and enjoy the moment.

also, how can music have the flavour of times and places in our lives, if it is timeless and universal?

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

the pleasures of food are ephemeral but it's quite important

if you try and generalise or render abstract the deep principle of this nurturing pleasure, you kind of miss the actual present point (memory of a meal is not a substitute for a meal)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

pop and improv, together at last

― Chip Morningstar (bob), Friday, 18 July 2003 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't prizing (as opposed to - I dunno - simply enjoying) the ephemeral tautologous? As soon as you prize something, doesn't it become enduring in some way.

ie the actual phenomenon was short-lived, but the epiphenomenon lives on (we think our whole lives of that fleeting and mysterious expression that passed across a face on that afternoon in 1976)?

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

What if you give your prizes away?

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"I feel the pain of fleeting joy."

― disco stu (disco stu), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

ts: memories of music vs. music

― disco stu (disco stu), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Pete's "fuck dyin'" theory is the best so far.

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Jerry you're making a good point but I imagine Tom to mean do you tend to prize the FACT that something's ephemeral ("ephemerality") rather than the thing itself. I'm not sure that I do. But the memory of some meals I've had is quite enduring. The harsh stink of andouiette on a hot, bright, day. At least I think that was andouiette.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Tracer said what I had meant to suggest when I mentioned "prizing ephemerality" on the other thread--the prizing not of music that is meant (or taken) to be ephemeral, but the prizing of its supposed ephemerality....

It was sort of an offhand comment though, I realize now I'm somewhat unprepared to defend it.

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

i think the "fuck dyin'" theory is not as nihilistic as it sounds

― disco stu (disco stu), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah but it takes this thread into the ether. Why a certain, context-specific notion of ephemerality should somehow be considered absolutely more life-affirming or death-denying is beyond me.

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"prizing ethereality"....

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

It also seems rather hectoring.

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

As soon as you prize something, doesn't it become enduring in some way.

well its that whole thing isnt it? the minute you start to think about what you are doing you lose the moment, or whatever

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Wordsworth's 'Preface to the Lyrical Ballads' to thread!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

right, it ends up being too meta ie. prizing ethereality = prizing all of music, every single ephemeral moment.

― disco stu (disco stu), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

well i suppose it only could be hectoring...(great word btw)

― disco stu (disco stu), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

By hectoring I mean as rhetoric it doesn't leave much room for debate.

"Dude! This single is the greatest thing ever!"

"You've only heard it once."

"Do you hate LIFE?!"

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

that's very very funny actually.

― disco stu (disco stu), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

haha i have that exact kind of conversation with my friends almost every day!

― pete b. (pete b.), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean yeah it's funny but the flipside is this:

"Wow, that's a good song. But I wonder if it'll sound so good tomorrow. I better wait till I've heard it a few more times, then I'll know. Yes, that's best. Best to be sure about these things. I mean, what if the next time I hear it it doesn't excite me so much? Then I'd feel foolish wouldn't I? What a waste of enthusiasm, which lord knows is in such short supply in this life anyway. No, I think I'll wait till this song has proved itself to be worth my enthusiasm, yes, yes..."

(repeat until dead)

― pete b. (pete b.), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(xpost)

i have that conversation, too, but it usually digresses into the "tasteful" debate

― disco stu (disco stu), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I saw "Little Buddha" on cable this week too.

― maria b (maria b), Saturday, 19 July 2003 00:39 (twenty-two years ago)

A permanant idea is a little idea.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 19 July 2003 05:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't prizing (as opposed to - I dunno - simply enjoying) the ephemeral tautologous? As soon as you prize something, doesn't it become enduring in some way.
ie the actual phenomenon was short-lived, but the epiphenomenon lives on (we think our whole

Memories of experiences/things can be better than the experience/thing actually was. If you lived exclusively in the moment, you aren't human.

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 19 July 2003 05:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Gareth's attitude upthread is pretty much mine.

I've listened to music in both ways - prizing longevity and prizing ephemerality - and I've found that the hit-rate of music that you do actually still listen to in 5 years time is pretty much the same either way (maybe I'm just very bad at second-guessing 'what lasts').

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Saturday, 19 July 2003 07:51 (twenty-two years ago)

improv 'wins'.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 19 July 2003 08:36 (twenty-two years ago)

A permanant idea is a little idea.

Do you always think that?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 19 July 2003 08:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Prizing ephemerality is the religion of those who have had no calamitous insights into the nature of reality, and we do not condescend to such people as they, too, have their place in the scheme of things. However, life is, in essence, netiher cute nor snappy.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Saturday, 19 July 2003 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Going off at a tangent, but there's a socio-economic aspect to this. Records are very much cheaper nowadays as a percentage of disposable income. Some older critical prejudices arose from the assumption that if you can't afford to buy many records you'll want the ones you do buy stand up to repeated listening. If you buy 5 or 10 records at a time instead of 1, this is much less of a factor. You'll be more likely prefer something that gives intense instant excitement even if it doesn't last. To some extent the current higher critical status of "ephemeral" music vis a vis "lasting" music is just a reflection of changed economic reality.

― ArfArf, Saturday, 19 July 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

the download blows that idea up x 1000000, too.

another angle: the 'ephemerality' (as mentioned above) has more to do with group enjoyment, with social experience, public life. Lasting values seems more related to a lie on yr bed w headphones kind of experience.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Saturday, 19 July 2003 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

ArfArf v.correct somewhat, though "lasting" still only means AT MAXIMUM (for music) lasts 600 years (literature i guess somewhat longer esp. if you read eg latin or i-forget-which-language gilgamesh is in): ie "it will last, physically" is generally cheaper

BUT ALSO i wz talking w. an ilxor this afternoon abt books and stuff, and we discussed what wd happen if you published various ilm threads in book form: well the value of ilm discussions i think VERY OFTEN at the instant immediate moment of discussion and unrecuperable thereafter except in fragments for participants — but its value at the time is in no way diminished by its semi-unrecoverability long ages later

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 19 July 2003 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

"A permanant idea is a little idea."

"Do you always think that?"

!!!

This whole argument hinges on another one of my pet peeve invocations of the hyper-real. Like, "This moment, this one fleeting moment, *this* is real, and the other stuff is just window dressing. As soon as I start to think about the moment, it's gone!" No, a moment is however you choose to demarcate it. Go ahead and place as much value on these "moments" as you wish, and be mournful of the fact that they are fleeting, or that you can never approach that level of "realness" again -- you're ultimately the one who defines the moment for yourself, so you have only yourself to thank/blame when they're "over."

― Clarke B., Saturday, 19 July 2003 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

the irony is that ephemerality is the lasting and that the lasting is ephemeral.

― gareth (gareth), Saturday, 19 July 2003 16:07 (twenty-two years ago)

"um, seriously though: i prize it because one of the most exciting feelings you can have when listening to pop music is (i think), the knowledge that a LOT of other people in the world are listening to/feeling the exact the same thing as you, at that moment. tiny, isolated moments of connection between millions of strangers. these moments disappear pretty quickly but they're so special they seem more worthwhile than almost anything else i think. (this whole 'universal connection' thing actually = why pop moves me in a wider sense too)"

Pete, that's a good thought; I'm afraid my own enthusiasm is squashed somewhat by the knowledge that MTV and Clear Channel make it so that these potential moments of connection happen no less than like twenty times a day for a given hot song. Call me lame, but I like my 'we're all one' epiphanies a little less predestined.

― Clarke B., Saturday, 19 July 2003 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

music can be infinitely and perfectly copied and is freely obtainable these days. this just adds to your argt.

my life is definitely cute and snappy, colin. haha.

major xpost

― disco stu (disco stu), Saturday, 19 July 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

(i was replying to arfarf btw)

― disco stu (disco stu), Saturday, 19 July 2003 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Wordsworth's 'Preface to the Lyrical Ballads' to thread!

Bugger off, I've things to do.

― Wordsworth's 'Preface to the Lyrical Ballads', Saturday, 19 July 2003 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Bastard!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 19 July 2003 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, honestly, I don't know if I ever did think that. And I don't know if I think that now. It was a good idea when I came up with it though.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 20 July 2003 07:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Colin all your post tells us is that you haven't worked out how to deal with your calamitous insights maturely yet.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Sunday, 20 July 2003 11:40 (twenty-two years ago)

It also tells us that I cannot spell.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Sunday, 20 July 2003 11:45 (twenty-two years ago)

No, a moment is however you choose to demarcate it.

that's why the best pop song written so far today was Mahler's Das Lied Von Der Erde

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 20 July 2003 13:05 (twenty-two years ago)

"Das Lied von der Erde" is a concept album though, modeled on "Foxtrot" (with superior results, sure), its place in history being the early 70s. It's history encapsulated in the object you have to listen for, not the other way round.

― nestmanso (nestmanso), Sunday, 20 July 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

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