Dada Influence RFI

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I suppose Cabaret Voltaire & Alice Cooper's record with the title 'Dada' would be the most obvious. Where else can the influence of the Dada art movement be observed in modern music?

― John Bullabaugh (John Bullabaugh), Monday, 28 July 2003 00:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Zappa, Zappa, Zappa. :)

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 28 July 2003 00:45 (twenty-two years ago)

well, Trout Mask Replica for sure.

Taken literally, certainly the work of amazing Dutch vocalist Jaap Blonk, who has recorded versions of pieces by Dadaists Hugo Ball and Kurt Schwitters, as well as issuing a wonderful body of original and improvisational works.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 28 July 2003 00:55 (twenty-two years ago)

were can i get some Mr D? I love scwitters merz poetry.

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 28 July 2003 00:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Nurse With Wound. Some of their song titles are straight from Tzara or Appolinaire. A confirmed Dadaist is Mr Stapleton.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 28 July 2003 01:04 (twenty-two years ago)

The Sex Pistols (esp. McLaren and Jamie Reed).

If you believe Greil Marcus, that is.

In his book Lipstick Traces, he ties a number of movements together, dada and the Situationists (Malcolm McLaren was a Situationist) and late 70s punk.

― David A. (Davant), Monday, 28 July 2003 01:10 (twenty-two years ago)

gaz ... check out this page for a downloadable version of the Blonk take on "Ursonate". Full props and credit to James Annett, who alerted me to that link. What happened to James, anyway? Haven't seen him around here. Oh, and also on that page are links to tracks from Blonk's Flux de Bouche cd, which is really phenomenal stuff. In particular, check out "Rhotic" and "Dina Sore" - hilarious and supremely wonderful.

also, upon consideration others contenders are probably: The whole of the Los Angeles Free Music Society movement (although you can more or less slot that into the post-Beefheart continuum); also probably anyone working in that kind of interruptus vein: Naked City, early Boredoms, Ground Zero, Christian Marclay, Anton Bruhin ... heck, throw the early Butthole Surfers in there. Zorn's First Recordings disc is a hoot. Whatta nut.

And that Futurism and Dada Reviewed compilation cd on the Sub Rosa label contains some pretty essential documentation of the original pranksters in action, folks like Duchamp and Tzara indulging in ecstatic weirdness..

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 28 July 2003 01:17 (twenty-two years ago)

also forget to mention the fact that that Blonk recording of "Ursonate" is apparently really rare because, although it was originally issued as an lp, Schwitters' family objected to it or something (!?)

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 28 July 2003 01:19 (twenty-two years ago)

To the above-mentioned artists, I would definitely add The Residents.

― Nom De Plume (Nom De Plume), Monday, 28 July 2003 01:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I just read an interview with Mariyln Manson where he spoke of the Dada influence in his newest work.

PS What is Dada?

― David Allen, Monday, 28 July 2003 01:34 (twenty-two years ago)

That's interesting I would've descibed Manson as Romantic, not Dada.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 28 July 2003 01:37 (twenty-two years ago)

many thanks mr diamond

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 28 July 2003 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

David - Dada was an early 20th century art movement centered in Zurich. A loose collection of visual artists, poets, actors, weirdos who came together and centered around a performance space they founded, the Cabaret Voltaire (from where that band took their name). The focus was on, uh, "shocking the bourgeoisie". Essentially involved lots of forced weirdness. Which at that juncture was in fact probably pretty coolly received. Unfortunately, it was another in a long line of ostensibly transgressive outsider art movements that left the capitalist machinery more than unscathed. They succeeded in making the world safe for the antics of a Marilyn Manson to be as lame and predictable as possible.

actually it's some really great, life-affirming stuff, no doubt. but, uh, I'm no art history student so someone more knowledgable than me should surely chime in.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 28 July 2003 01:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Pere Ubu OWNZ this thread. check out "Terminal Tower" or the song "Misery Goats."

― brains (cerybut), Monday, 28 July 2003 02:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Re/Search, small publisher that did early industrial, punk, etc. in print, have some stuff about this. One that comes to mind is their "pranks" book that has some records. I wish I could be more specific but the coolest thing from there, was a musician from L.A. who wrote a ridiculous dirty song called "a blind man's penis" and had it recorded by a mail order country music vanity label. One of those things that advertise "get famous, send us your song and $50, have a real country musician put it on record." He got it back done by some ancient grizzled anonymous honky tonker and it was so funny it helped his career a lot. I wanna hear it. Another one from the book was the Feederz who made records in sandpaper sleeves to wreck other records, like dada guys did with their books.

― sucka (sucka), Monday, 28 July 2003 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

"Take the Skinheads Bowling"

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 28 July 2003 03:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Durutti Column also did the sandpaper sleeve bit.

― Mike Ouderkirk (Mike Ouderkirk), Monday, 28 July 2003 04:55 (twenty-two years ago)

does aphex djing with sanding discs count then?

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 28 July 2003 05:01 (twenty-two years ago)

no, that's just aphex being a jackass

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 28 July 2003 05:03 (twenty-two years ago)

The lyrics to "Blind Man's Penis" originally referred to "Stevie Wonder's penis," but the mail-order outfit that did the recording declined to use a real person's name in the song and changed them on their own. The artist was Zoogz Rift, and I read this somewhere way back when it happened.

Hasn't Eno claimed certain dada-esque processes in producing his music?

― nickn (nickn), Monday, 28 July 2003 05:19 (twenty-two years ago)

"dark, hard, dark rubber wheels"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 28 July 2003 05:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Who's that group that put out albums in pizza boxes?

― Mike Ouderkirk (Mike Ouderkirk), Monday, 28 July 2003 05:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Caroliner. All the way, dude. :)

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 28 July 2003 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

the concept of influence is bogus enough in routine rock-pop marketing spiel, but when it starts to infest discussion of the (quasi) avant-garde, you just throw your hands up in despair — unless i guess you accept from the outset that the avant-garde has never been anything but a high-conceptnmiche-directed arm of the leisure industry

the reference to marcus's book up-thread gets his argument — as usual — exactly upside down

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 28 July 2003 07:44 (twenty-two years ago)

hey gaz try LPs on the algha marghen label of sound poetry: I'd recommend Isidore Isou 'Poeme Letrristes 1944-99' as a starter. was actually thinking of doing a thread on this.

The ubu website is fantastic. hours of fun.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 28 July 2003 07:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Look into Berlin Dada (c 1918-24) which is where the politicising of Dada's anarchistic, anti-establishment tendencies flowered most fully. Johannes Baader in particular was a visionary genius. The Brits had their own don though, Arthur Craven - he's worth a look also.

"A dadaist is someone who loves life in all its uncountable forms, and who knows, and says that, 'Life is not here alone, but also there, there, there (da, da, da)'." Baader 1918.

― Alex K (Alex K), Monday, 28 July 2003 08:06 (twenty-two years ago)

alex's post calls to thread the obvious dada influence on Trio's hit from the 80's, 'Da Da Da'. what a great song, btw.

― joan vich (joan vich), Monday, 28 July 2003 09:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Dadaism? Never heard of it

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 28 July 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

...Johannes Baader however is my favourite ever Baader

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 28 July 2003 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to suggest Runzelstirn & Gurgelstock/Schimpfluch-Gruppe, as well as the entire Chocolate Monk catalog. Look for "Cassette Mythos", edited by Robin James, published by Semiotext(e)/Autonomedia,
a stronghold of irritating/weird lit...at least at one time...
John Trubee was the author of "A Blind Man's Penis", and a 45 was released on Mykel Boards label a while ago--he has a website somewhere
on the 'net'. I have a copy of the aforementioned 45, if anyone wants
a cassette duplicate.

― Stephen Boyle (SBoyle), Monday, 28 July 2003 14:16 (twenty-two years ago)

the concept of influence is bogus enough in routine rock-pop marketing spiel, but when it starts to infest discussion of the (quasi) avant-garde, you just throw your hands up in despair

That, and kudos for putting "quasi" in parentheses. "Pseudo" would sound bitter, "non" too straight, so what do you do? Throw up hands in despair. (Satie --> Cage --> Zappa --> your lecturer --> where's the rope)

― nestmanso (nestmanso), Monday, 28 July 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Final note, "Blind Man's Penis" was not by Zoogz Rift, but an associate of his named John Trubee.

― David Allen, Monday, 28 July 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

>>>John Trubee was the author of "A Blind Man's Penis", and a 45 was released on Mykel Boards label a while ago--he has a website somewhere<<<

I used to have a record by John Trubee & the Geeks. All I remember about it, except that the whole thing was wierd & only marginally interesting, was that there was a song on it called 'Dumping Buckets of Phlegm on Bitchy Old Ladies,' one of my all-time favorite song titles.

Thanks for all of the info everybody.

― John Bullabaugh (John Bullabaugh), Monday, 28 July 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

the reference to marcus's book up-thread gets his argument — as usual — exactly upside down

mark s, I'm genuinely curious how I managed to do this. I didn't use the word "influence", and as far as I can tell, Marcus is advancing an almost Jungian collective unconscious idea. In other words, that all these movements are different facets of some archetypal meme that probably dates back to the Middle Ages. If I've gotten this backwards, let me know why, and (fuck it) I'll have to reevaluate my comprehension levels.

― David A. (Davant), Monday, 28 July 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

hasn't anybody who has ever done the whole cut up lyrics thing (ie put words in a hat draw em out and use them as lyrics) owe a debt to the dadists?

bowie, etc

― gallantseagull, Monday, 28 July 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

your interpretation of the book is the same as mine, David. I think Mark was just responding to what he assumed was the usual "Marcus thinks John Lydon was influenced by John of Leyden" misreading, which has come up on about four different threads that I can remember.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 28 July 2003 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, okay, I'm still fairly new to ILM and haven't come across those threads. Thanks for the context, though, Justyn.

(And yeah, I don't think Marcus is saying that, either.)

― David A. (Davant), Monday, 28 July 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Start here, work out way outwards.

The Dada Painters and Poets: An Anthology
Robert Motherwell (editor)

Search: Andre Breton, Marcel Duchamp, Man Ray, Alfred Jarry, Joan Arp, Max Ernst, Kurt Schwitters, Tristan Tzara, Richard Huelsenbeck, Joan Miro, Salvador Dali, Francis Picabia, Hugo Ball and George Grosz.

I have nothing to say about DADA that you cannot google for yourself.

DADA IS NOT DEAD, WATCH YOUR OVERCOAT!!!

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Dada == break stuff modernism? Right, they called it "épater le bourgeois".

Trio == Dada x 1.5

― nestmanso (nestmanso), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 02:25 (twenty-two years ago)

The Bride Stripped Bare is a ballpark reference to part-time Dadaist (heck, part-time artist) Marcel Duchamp's Large Glass ... and the lyrics to "I Zimbra" are allegedly from a Hugo Ball sound poem. And I think it's safe to say the Heads fancied themselves somewhat Dada, or Dada influenced, among other things. (A pretty good case could be made.)

But then any band that's come out of anything resembling the art school demimonde will likely have been at least vaguely influenced by Dada--or fancy themselves so. Further most rock, and certainly art rock, punk rock, experimental rock etc, is implicitly colored by Dada (it could be argued, anyway) and all the rest of the abortive, early-20th century, modern and postmodern upheavals. Dada having happened is one of the preconditions for rock's existence as 'rock'--it's almost like trying to pin down what art's been influenced by, say, Freud.

And that's before we get into the fact that anything that's slamming random machinery, mechanistic imagery, etc. into more melodic or coherent structures can be directly traced to Picabia and co. Or the way the whole "intelligent, artful, middle-class dissent-by-way-of-a liberating, convention-shattering chaos" aspect of the phenomenon maps onto theories of punk and indie rock (to name but two) like a charm ...

― brian nemtusak (sanlazaro), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Store/Images/Icon-IRule.jpg

― Dada, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 03:05 (twenty-two years ago)

(it could be argued, anyway)

Thanks for summing up.

― nestmanso (nestmanso), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 04:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Not to overstress a point (ILM: But that's exactly what you're doing, Colin. Me: Shut up!), but Nurse With Wound are one of the very few intrinsically dadaist acts ever to appear in modern music (as opposed to being merely dada-influenced, or dada referencing). Steven Stapleton of NWW is a true dadaist. As for the relationship between dadaism and surrealism, the latter was heavily influenced by the former - and may simply have been a continuation of it, or even a matter of Breton heisting Tzara's ideas, then ousting him from the scene, in a kind of artistic and cultural coup. For more on NWW, check out:

http://www.brainwashed.com/nww/

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 06:35 (twenty-two years ago)

David A. no yr right, you didn't in fact use the word "influence": but you did give a verb-less response to the thread question, which I took to imply it. So sorry for being knee-jerk there — sounds (on expansion) like you got Marcus right, though I doubt exactly think he means it in a Jungian way, exactly, I think he means that the prevailing situation causes the antinomianism of the day to precipitate out of what certain people are like.

(LT is very very anti-mechanism, which is good when he's respecting the claims of [whoever] to be something new, something different — ie he doesn't just reach for the usual hand-me-down mechanisms — and surely a great deal of the point of the book, except in the long term it's surely a weakness... ask so where DID this tendency keep coming from, and you're back at uh, yet ANOTHER social nexus quietly being swept back under the reactionary carpet of "influence").

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 08:10 (twenty-two years ago)

That's okay, it sounds like you've had to rehash this discussion on ILM more than once. I did come across ILM's deconstruction of "influence" before, though, and I'd never presume to use such a term without (vigorously) defending it (which I doubt I could do, heh). I did have to look up "antinomianism", though. ;-)

And yeah, I come from a counseling/psychology background (sort of) and that was probably me projecting that Jungian thing onto what Marcus was actually saying (he does mention Jung in the book, but it's hardly the thrust of his argument).

― David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

When I hear the phrase Jungian I reach for my (non-phallic) gun

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 12:18 (twenty-two years ago)

You haven't got a non-phallic gun, have you, Dada'''''??

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

four years pass...

Can anybody point me in the direction of books and resources which focus on the sonic aspect to the Dada movement? ubuweb obviously...

― S-, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 05:11 (eighteen years ago)

Lipstick Traces?

― dad a, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 06:32 (eighteen years ago)

Todd Rundgren had a song on A Wizard a True Star with "Dada" in the title. And marilyn manson claims an influence even if I don't hear it.

Probably The Residents too.

― filthy dylan, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 16:13 (eighteen years ago)

Beck, "Readymade"

― dad a, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 16:26 (eighteen years ago)

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~gin/rock/japan/hanatarasi/hanatarashi2/hana.bw05.jpg
http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~gin/rock/japan/hanatarasi/hanatarashi2/hana.bw07.jpg
http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~gin/rock/japan/hanatarasi/hanatarashi2/hana.bw09.jpg

― am0n, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 18:18 (eighteen years ago)

Can anybody point me in the direction of books and resources which focus on the sonic aspect to the Dada movement?

http://epc.buffalo.edu/sound/soundpoetry.html

― am0n, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 18:23 (eighteen years ago)

Beck, "Readymade"

Well, Beck's grandfather is Al Hansen, a 60s Fluxus artist (Ono!)

― Cunga, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 19:18 (eighteen years ago)

Thanks dad a and am0n.

I was aware of Lipstick Traces (I have the CD), I wonder whether G. Marcus can qualify as a text for an academic paper though...

― S-, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 03:16 (eighteen years ago)

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