Are Iron Maiden the Ramones of prog?

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So my mind burbled the other day given recent indulgences in their music, concert and all. Help me explicate or make sense of this assertion, I'm not sure about it myself. Dave Q to thread obv.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 14:21 (fifteen years ago) link

This question makes my cerebellum hurt.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 14:24 (fifteen years ago) link

You tell 'em (Kurt) .

dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 14:26 (fifteen years ago) link

Admittedly that was not the reaction I expected from Alex, but that could be why I like it.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 14:33 (fifteen years ago) link

Ned, did that particular question strike you before, during or after your watching the Tolkien-themed filmathon?

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 14:37 (fifteen years ago) link

Some days before. Whatever hallucinogenic impressions hit my mind last night are fresh and dewy in comparison.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 14:38 (fifteen years ago) link

how can a band be the ramones of anything¿ (excluding the ramones themselves obv)

dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 14:40 (fifteen years ago) link

does "the ramones of" = dumb-as-smart?

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:06 (fifteen years ago) link

Does this mean that the Ramones are the Iron Maiden of punk?

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:07 (fifteen years ago) link

I think Iron Maiden are the Herman's Hermits of sport fishing.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:09 (fifteen years ago) link

...which, of course, renders the Ramones the Manheim Steamroller of flower arranging.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:10 (fifteen years ago) link

...which, with the thread goin' on forever, may as well lead us to the Allman Brothers.
Are Iron Maiden the Allman Bros of jazz-rock fusion, then!

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:16 (fifteen years ago) link

Tuesday is the new Thursday

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:18 (fifteen years ago) link

( ! is the ? of bad punctuation, obv)

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:25 (fifteen years ago) link

If you mean that Iron Maiden distills and somewhat simplifies the overblown/wanky aspect of prog into a harder, (somewhat, since we are talking about prog) simplified formula that is on the whole pretty catchy and poppy for the most part much like the Ramones might have taken early 70s hard rock and done the same, then yes....but in a lot of ways the Ramones just played 50s and 60s oldies music faster and harder, so they weren't (if you think they were more in the 50s tradition than standing late 60s hard rock (of the MC5/Steppenwolf/Blue Cheer school) on its head) really working with source material that was that overblown or pompous to begin with. Although they did simplify the arrangements of say Phil Spector pop, but not necessarily make them more immediate or catchier....

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:44 (fifteen years ago) link

I'm now seriously considering that my last post made no fucking sense whatsoever. I just noticed I used parenthesis within parenthesis, which is a bad sign.

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:45 (fifteen years ago) link

this thread warms my heart.

animal wrangler (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:47 (fifteen years ago) link

And you're all gay. They're clearly the ZZ Top.

animal wrangler (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:48 (fifteen years ago) link

ZZ Top is gay? Icons in the "bear" community, no doubt.

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:51 (fifteen years ago) link

Ned OTM! "53rd & 3rd" = "Running Free", "Chain Saw" = "Murders in the Rue Morgue", "Wart Hog" = "The Evil that Men Do", "Beat on the Brat" = "Children of the Damned", "Psycho Therapy" = "Can I Play With Madness", Paul Di'anno = Tommy Erdelyi (ie 'nothing was ever the same' etc), good god I think you've solved the mystery of our age, never could figure out where IM 'came from' but you've got it! (S Harris on Genesis - "There were fings going ahn in the music I'd never fort abaht before")

dave q, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 15:59 (fifteen years ago) link

Hey thanks! And Matt put what I was also sorta thinking more coherently than I was.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:21 (fifteen years ago) link

good, then it made some sense I guess....either way, I have nothing but love for Maiden and the Ramones....Phantom of the Opera was one of the first songs my teacher taught me when I was taking bass lessons as a lad...

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:24 (fifteen years ago) link

I also love thinking about Iron Maiden, maybe moreso than I like listening to Iron Maiden. Kind of like the Fall in that way.

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:27 (fifteen years ago) link

Correct, Iron Maiden _are_ the Ramones of Prog.


But who are the Beatles of Metal eh?

mei (mei), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:36 (fifteen years ago) link

Enuff Z'Nuff sure *thought* they were. But that was mistaking sound for intention.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:39 (fifteen years ago) link

Does that make Judas Priest Blondie then?

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:41 (fifteen years ago) link

They're certainly as stylistically dependable as the Ramones, god bless 'em. I may even have to get the new album.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:42 (fifteen years ago) link

Glamourpuss popstar fronting rock dudes, sure. "Living After Midnight" = "11:59", "One Way or Another" = "You've Got Another Thing Coming"...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:43 (fifteen years ago) link

Would Zeppelin be the Beatles of Metal, for sheer influence and importance....or maybe Sabbath is the Beatles of Metal?

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:51 (fifteen years ago) link

Black Sabbath is a prog group, as proven by this thread.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 17:12 (fifteen years ago) link

(I mean, Black Sabbath were more prog than Iron Maiden, anyway. Plus they had Rick Wakeman play with them)

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 17:13 (fifteen years ago) link

I don't know, their best stuff (Paranoid, War Pigs, Supernaut, Symptom of the Universe, etc) was always pretty straighfoward stuff, usually focused on one main riff....although I guess Hawkwind was pretty repetitive too and they're prog

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 17:19 (fifteen years ago) link

plus Wakeman also plays on some Bowie and T-rex records and I wouldn't call them prog (well, maybe early t-rex and berlin bowie)

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 17:21 (fifteen years ago) link

isn't he on that awful 1st lou reed record too?

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 17:31 (fifteen years ago) link

quite possible....I don't know though...I almost wonder if he wasn't like Jimmy Page and JPJones in the 60s, one of those session guys for hire, playing harpsicord on Lulu records, I'm sure he's have the chops for sessioneering.

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 17:37 (fifteen years ago) link

wait, you're being literalist on the "Are Iron Maiden the Ramones of prog?" thread?

Anyway, "Cornucopia" mashes together about 10 different riffs and time changes within about 4 minutes, in a manner more disjointed than Yes. Plus Black Sabbath ("Wasp/Behind the Wall of Sleep/N.I.B." and "A Bit of Finger/Sleeping Village/Warning") and Volume 4 ("Wheels of Confusion/The Straightener" and "Under the Sun/Every Day Comes and Goes") each have two multipart song suites.

Plus TS ("Embryo" + "Laguna Sunrise") vs. ("The Clap" + "Mood For A Day")

Plus "Into the Void"! Plus "The Writ"!!

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 17:39 (fifteen years ago) link

TS: "FX" vs. "Five Per Cent for Nothing"

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 17:42 (fifteen years ago) link

(fuck I meant "Orchid, not "Embryo" up there)

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 17:46 (fifteen years ago) link

Okay, okay, you win....I sometimes forget the softer/proggier side of sab sometimes cause I always skip ahead to the next rocker....also Laguna Sunrise (and Sabotage in general) would be a good example for your point as well....Planet Caravan too, come to think

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 17:56 (fifteen years ago) link

If you mean that Iron Maiden distills and somewhat simplifies the overblown/wanky aspect of prog into a harder, (somewhat, since we are talking about prog) simplified formula that is on the whole pretty catchy and poppy for the most part

haha Styx = Ramones of prog

sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 28 August 2003 04:34 (fifteen years ago) link

(Or maybe Boston beat them to it when they were still wanking all over Equinox.)

sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 28 August 2003 04:35 (fifteen years ago) link

(They were also much more formulaic. Then again, what I've heard from the first couple Yes albums is relatively 'simple' and 'harder' and their relationship to prog is more comparable to that of the Ramones to punk than that of any other band mentioned so maybe Yes = Ramones of prog.)

sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 28 August 2003 04:40 (fifteen years ago) link

(Or maybe the Beatles were?)

sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 28 August 2003 04:40 (fifteen years ago) link

Is there a way we could make the Ramones the Ramones of prog?

sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 28 August 2003 04:43 (fifteen years ago) link

I've heard stranger.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 28 August 2003 04:46 (fifteen years ago) link

Bev Bevan played with Sabbath. Does that make them the ELO of metal?

Chris Barrus (Chris Barrus), Thursday, 28 August 2003 04:56 (fifteen years ago) link

Terry Chimes also played with Sabbath. Does that make them the Clash as well?

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 28 August 2003 12:33 (fifteen years ago) link

O well...
"Led Zep were the Clash of poodle rock", anyone?

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Thursday, 28 August 2003 13:37 (fifteen years ago) link

Hey, don't insult Led Zep that way. *hides*

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 28 August 2003 13:41 (fifteen years ago) link

*in no time at all, finds Ned crouching behind his record shelves!*

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Thursday, 28 August 2003 13:49 (fifteen years ago) link

Ya darn punk!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 28 August 2003 13:58 (fifteen years ago) link

The White Stripes are the Yes of hip-hop.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 28 August 2003 14:04 (fifteen years ago) link

*bashfully, hands crouching Ned Ramone the note: "sir, yer 'riginal question's clearly rhetorical, for the answer is 'yay!!'"

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Thursday, 28 August 2003 14:13 (fifteen years ago) link

The White Stripes are the Run-DMC of the Ramones. (because all three groups wear the same clothes all the time)

Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 28 August 2003 14:14 (fifteen years ago) link

two months pass...
Sab / Priest / Maiden = FNM / Korn / Bizkit

dave q, Thursday, 27 November 2003 00:48 (fifteen years ago) link

Mmm...I'll have to sleep on that one, but where does Linkin Park fit in? As the Quiet Riot equivalent?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 27 November 2003 08:19 (fifteen years ago) link

Linkin Park = Autograph, which would make Nickelback = Helix

dave q, Thursday, 27 November 2003 08:22 (fifteen years ago) link

Mmm...I like that.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 27 November 2003 08:22 (fifteen years ago) link

Iron Maiden : Prog = Ramones : Brill Building / Baroque Pop

Possibly.

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 27 November 2003 11:09 (fifteen years ago) link

six months pass...
They're PROG???

Be sure to Loop! Loop, Loop, Loop. (ex machina), Friday, 28 May 2004 17:35 (fifteen years ago) link

short answer = no with a http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf300/f350/f35050wf0fd.jpg
long answer = yes with a http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf100/f117/f117453jij9.jpg

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 28 May 2004 18:01 (fifteen years ago) link

three years pass...

classic thread

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 25 December 2007 00:26 (eleven years ago) link

two years pass...

new album, second half especially, is kinda proggy

kamerad, Wednesday, 11 August 2010 13:49 (eight years ago) link

two years pass...

Nice read, that.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 17 July 2013 17:34 (six years ago) link

Great piece as always, Marcello.

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 17 July 2013 17:49 (six years ago) link

http://www.classicrockmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/bruce-dickinson-pilot.jpg

i didn't know..

nostormo, Wednesday, 17 July 2013 18:33 (six years ago) link

hey marcello i really enjoyed that

small point of fact you might want to correct - nation of ulysses didn't form until 1988 so they don't seem like a good example, perhaps sub Minor Threat or something else from DC?

adrian "stanky" legg (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 17 July 2013 19:13 (six years ago) link

there always seemed something vaguely 1983 about NoU but perhaps it was just me. thanks for noticing, will fix.

two years pass...

so turns out there's an 18 minute long song on the new maiden album

reggie (qualmsley), Wednesday, 2 September 2015 02:11 (three years ago) link

three years pass...

Listening to 'Killers' this morning it really caught me how much DiAnno seems to be channeling Ian Gillan on the track "Twilight Zone". That track also has a souped up "Highway Star" gallop. Seems like an early track where you can hear the influence.

earlnash, Sunday, 9 December 2018 17:08 (seven months ago) link


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