I'm so disappointed, but the new M.O.D. album is the worst thing I've heard in five years

It's BEEN gone. For a while. I should say.

Arguable.

He's a musician,...

Also very arguable.

...he's not in it so you guys will say he's a "nice guy."

Maybe not, but does that give him (or anyone) the right to be an asshole?

* (the one with the songs "Wigger" and "Assganistan")

Well, Chuck, I don't know where you were hangin' out way back when, but time was when the hardcore community and the metalheads had as little to do with each other as possible (witness the inteview with JFA drummer Mike Tracy on the Flipside compilation where he's ridiculed for listening to metal). Sound-wise, there was certainly some cross-polination, but the scenes themselves were pretty separate by design (each community put off by what they saw as the stylistic shenanigans of each other). You had Motorhead, of course, but until Metallica started appearing on album sleeves with GBH and Discharge t-shirts on, the two genres still seemed pretty marginalized from each other.

That all said, I don't consider S.O.D's first record to be the preeminent article of the "crossover".

Detroit. Home of the Necros and Negative Approach. 'Nuff said, I hope.

Though you didn't have to be from Detroit to hear Flipper or Vox Pop or the Angry Samoans or Die Kreuzen or Rudimentary Peni. Tho I guess if one prefers dime-a-dozen slampit retards who think "going really fast" is the epitome of creativity, one might well not be interested.

And I don't much care what "communities" liked. (Tho Metallica were covering the Misfits by 1987, and Greg Ginn namedropping Sabbath and Purple and Hawkwind six-plus years earlier.) I care about the music.

:::sigh:::: Another predictable answer from Chuck. I care about the music too, which is why I sought out albums/bands from both genres. But, at the time, those genres were very disctinctly SEPARATE from one another. Black Flag extolled the merits of Sabbath assuredly, but remember this is also a band that willfully grew out its hair and completely changed up their style (from by-the-numbers speedy hardcore to slow-as-molasses sludge) almost for the sole purpose of antagonizing certain factions of its audience.

By the way, the Necros were from Ohio, not Michigan

And Alex, which is more punk rock -- antogonizing your audience, or toeing the stupid line said crowd wants you to toe? I mean, I pretty much think Black Flag went downhill as soon as Henry joined, but come on....Hardcore, as interesting music, was kind of OVER by 1981 or so!

Well, that's arguable. I mean, yes, it did get pretty staid after a while (for certain bands), but there were artists who branched out and took things in different directions (you mentioned Die Kreuzen, who were a fine example of this, although I'm sure there are folks who'd decry their status as hardcore).

And yeah, there were exceptions after 1981. There still are some, I guess. But the genre was pretty much a dead issue as a GENRE by '81.

Actually, in a way, so were the Circle Jerks (who weren't all THAT great, though at least their first album somewhat holds up.)

I guess what I'm saying is that, by 1981-82 or so, pretty much all the BEST hardcore bands were fairly EXPLICITLY influenced by metal (Redd Kross, Husker Du who made *Metal Circus* in '83, Meat Puppets if you listen to their first EP and album, Butthole Surfers, the Minutemen who covered Van Halen and Blue Oyster Cult, plus all the names I mentioned above); if what you're saying is that the dumber, more half-assed generic ones didn't discover metal until a few years later, well, I guess I have no problem giving that point to you.

This is pretty incoherent -- What I mean was, they weren't especially original in any way I can remember, either.

I'm losing steam with this argument (which happens when you step away to pick up your laundry, drink a cup of coffee and field a phone call), but Chuck, the differences I heard in hardcore pre and post `85 had nothing to do with the nefarious doings of any marketing department and more to do with the actual weight of the sound.
Moreover, never once did I assert that the Circle Jerks -- much less Sick of It All -- were especially original, but that both bands fall squarely into the category (and I know you hate that word) of 'hardcore'.

I'd agree that the smarter bands that effectively started off as hardcore (specifically the names you mentioned, notably Redd Kross, Husker Du, the Minutemen...and to that I'd add Black Flag) were influenced by metal and clearly saw the limitations of the genre they were growing out of. Each of them effectively renounced their hardcore roots, often times by embracing that which hardcore eshewed entirely (psychedlia, guitar solos, slower tempos, acoustic guitars, etc.) Some might argue (like the M.O.D. contingent) that in doing so, they ceased being harcore. But just because those bands rose above (ho ho) hardcore and took their creativity elsewhere, that doesn't mean that hardcore didn't continue to thrive (however less interestingly).

In Praise Of.....Group Sex by the Circle Jerks

In the dark of the day
And the black of the sun...
He's coming for you!

LOOK OUT!

I thank kkvgz for the revive because it allowed me to see the funniest post ever, obscured by Alex and chuck's debate (specific LOLs in bold):

I agree with the Alex NYC here, metal and hardcore didn't have anything to do with one another 'til about '85. I can't stand Black Flag or the Circle Jerks or any of that early shit. Those bands weren't tight and they weren't that fast either like everyone seems to think. The songs usually were so sloppy that you couldn't hear the catchiness if it were even there. I tend to make the mistake of saying "hardcore" when I mean "hardcore metal" quite often. The Cro-Mags first record is about as straight-up "hardcore" as I get; beyond that its got metal guitar playing or it bores the fuck out of me. I like bands like Excel, Final Conflict, Judge, Beyond, Beyond Posession, etc... thats "hardcore" to me. So, crazy as it is that I had to defend my feelings - there you go. Oh, and Slayer is a "hardcore" band too.
― Johnny Badlees (crispssssss), Tuesday, September 30, 2003 12:46 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink