Mooks vs. Scallies

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I noticed the amount of hatred expressed on the Fred Durst thread, the main sentiment of which seemed to run like this, "Music was once a safe haven for sensitive poetic types like (sigh) Kurt, and now all the jocks and mooks are beating their chests and Breaking Stuff in OUR space", etc. What I want to know is, is UK thug-rock (TWOCK-ROCK! Heh!) roughly equivalent (in your opinion), epitomised by the Gallaghers, Happy Mondays etc? How did UK indie/twee fans feel about these bands? And why do football hooligans like New Order so much, was it 'World in Motion'? (Also, I noticed in the Guardian that Manchester clubs are trying to keep out 'scallies', the writer thought this ironic as scallies 'made' Manchester in the first place.) Apologies for my gross ignorance but I'm just a tourist.

― dave q, Monday, 27 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Boy, there's a lot to answer here. First off, New Order had a terrace following long before World In Motion, as did the Smiths (I'm sure somebody's done a thesis on the contradictions or not involved) and maybe even the Wedding Present (on a smaller scale, for sure). Also: interesting to contrast early praise of the Mondays ('86-89) which celebrated their oddness and sly intelligence, and later coverage, which played up the tabloid clowny side - coinciding with new lad. British equiv's of 'mook' as an insult limited because - as we've discussed before - middle class hacks scared of getting called toffs (I seem to remember the letters pages of the NME being filled with anger because William Leith had discussed comparative boarding school experiences with Andrew Eldritch). One time this did surface was early acid house when 'acid ted' cropped to describe vulgarians who did get the entire enlightened attitude than came with getting on one, matey...

― Mark Morris, Monday, 27 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Was there possibly a sense that Happy Mondays circa 88 represented 'the other', something exciting and exotic in, at that time particularly, a rather middle class indie world.

the insult 'mook' or equivalent will always have limited currency in this country because, from the nineties onwards, EVERYONE has wanted to be working class in this country (either that or a Wildean dandy), and this is an easy signpost to what proletarianism supposedly is.

also, a convenient way of getting around this problem has been to label 'mooks' or whatever as 'cheesy quavers' etc. rave music, for much of the nineties, stood in for the proletarianised aspects indierock didn't like. maybe this changed circa 96 with big beat? level of attack on dance music changed to focus on supposed girlyness and handbag? homophobic undertones? rise of garage returns to class based invective with garage kevs standing in for cheesy quavers?

― gareth, Tuesday, 28 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

one month passes...

To answer yer question, YES. Indeed, mooks ARE scallies, and Rage Against the Machine, Limp Bizkit etc. were preceded by the (scouse) La's and the Farm, later by the (manc ) Stone Roses and O-waste-is. It basically went downhill from there. Liam Gallagher can pound that puff Fred Durst like a chop of veal. Football hooligans 'round my way listen to the likes of The Mighty Wah! though. Anyway, all the "jocks" 'round 'ere are all Scots! ;-)

"Italian Scallion"

― Dante, Thursday, 11 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

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