The Soundness of Pitchfork Media

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

How do people sustain respect for pitchfork after getting over that pitchfork-type-music-phase that we all go through?

― adam michel, Friday, 12 December 2003 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Your question begs several conditions that don't always apply.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Somehow this vague, wide-open question gets right at the heart of pitchfork love/hate. Bravo.

(x-post)

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

(I wasn't being sarchastic, but now next to Ned's post, it looks like I am.)

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

when did you stop beating your wife?

― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

i just don't get all the fuss either which way

you read it or you don't

― JaXoN (JasonD), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

"we all"

Pitchfork covers a lot of music.

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I respect it well enough, it's just that Pitchfork specializes in the same kind(s) of music that I trust my own tastes in. They have nothing to say to me.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

But then, given that logic, who does have anything to say to me?

Oh nooooo....
*slides down slippery slope*

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I only read it ironically.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 12 December 2003 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I dance it ironically, like Travolta.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i just glance at the number ratings.

― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Criticizing Pitchfork is like dancing about architecture. And stuff.

― Xii (Xii), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Unfortunately, many of their reviews are about dancing about architecture and random suff too.

― Xii (Xii), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously, you would think the fate of western civilization rests in the hands of pitchfork for as much as it's debated on ILM. Here's the brief synopsis:

Pitchfork is a internet music news and reviews site. It primarily focues on indie rock, except when it doesn't. It also reviews rap and some pop, now more than in the past. Sometimes the writing is good, other times it is not. Sometimes people agree with their reviews sometimes they do not. Some people like indie rock, some people think it sucks and is irrelevent. People don't like indie rock snobs who don't like pop. Christgau thinks Pitchfork's writing sucks. They have a Year 2003 year-in-review coming out.

The End.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Unfortunately, many of their reviews are about dancing about architecture and random suff too.

That's why I read AMG reviews more than any others. But that might just be because they're short.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:23 (twenty-two years ago)

brief synopsis

90% of that could apply to every music review site on the net.

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Pitchfork covers a lot of music, indeed, and a lot of music that I like.

― adammichel, Friday, 12 December 2003 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't read it. Too much indie pretension.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:26 (twenty-two years ago)

However I would write for them to up my cred and futher my own self-promotion.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Sometimes I think Pitchfork makes indie rock look bad by a) being kinda ridiculous on the snobbishness front b) writing about it very badly a lot of the time and c) championing some really awful bands. All I know is that now it's come to the point where if I've never heard of something and Pitchfork is giving it positive coverage, I probably won't go out of my way to check it out because I'm going to assume that it's the typical borecore stuff that most of its writers usually cherish.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

90% of that could apply to every music review site on the net.

agreed, but 90% of the music review sites on the net don't have two threads a day devoted to them on ILM.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:34 (twenty-two years ago)

So what's missing from the synopsis?

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I still cringe when the term "indie" is uttered/typed/thought.
This might be sophomoric as hell.

― adam michel, Friday, 12 December 2003 23:36 (twenty-two years ago)

The problem is is that the word "indie" perfectly captures what is so utterly wrong about rock enthusiasm nowadays. It's a dumb word for a dumb concept.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Brilliantly put.

― adam michel, Friday, 12 December 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, I suppose I'm shifting away from the topic. This might not be the time or place for a holy war against the indie concept.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

The more important question is: why do ILXors act like reading Pitchfork is mandatory?

― Dean Gulberry (deangulberry), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm extremely bored today, so I decided to search the archives: this makes now 57 threads devoted to Pitchfork. Also I counted at least 5 threads devoted to specific Pitchfork writers (Nitsuh, BrentD, couple others), though not necessarily "about" a specific piece they wrote for the site. There are 51 threads about The Beatles, 45 threads about Eminem, 37 threads about Jay-Z, 28 threads about Sonic Youth, 26 threads about the Stones, and 20 threads about Oasis. After George Smith ran wild the past couple of days, we're probably up to around 15 or so on Ozzy, but I didn't check.

Someday it might be funny to revive all 57 threads about Pitchfork at the same time, kind of like Dastoor did that one day with Momus. Or not. (oh, that reminds me .. let's see .... 48 [!!] threads about Momus)

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

All one has to do to lose all respect for Pitchfork is to go back and read BrentD's review of Metallica's St. Anger.

There are lots of "indie" rock sites out there, but a lot us just end up reading Pitchfork by default since it's one of the few that is updated daily.

― dieblucasdie (dieblucasdie), Saturday, 13 December 2003 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

there is the theory of the mobius

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 13 December 2003 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

All I know is that now it's come to the point where if I've never heard of something and Pitchfork is giving it positive coverage, I probably won't go out of my way to check it out because I'm going to assume that it's the typical borecore stuff that most of its writers usually cherish.

But that's just wrong - if you flip through our Best New Music listing, most of the albums aren't even "rock."

ILM keeps spawning new threads but the criticisms of the 'Fork get lazier and less resistant. I've seen enough screwball comedies to know that this is basically just a sex thing.

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Saturday, 13 December 2003 01:03 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, please don't start turning into Ott c. six months ago on us, Dahlen!

― M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 13 December 2003 01:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't worry, I'm thinking about more innocent times ...

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Saturday, 13 December 2003 01:09 (twenty-two years ago)

whew!

― M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 13 December 2003 01:10 (twenty-two years ago)

...most of the albums aren't even "rock."

This is precisely one of the most obnoxious aspects of pitchfork. They want everyone to know that they are unaffected enough to like jay z.

― adam michel, Saturday, 13 December 2003 02:19 (twenty-two years ago)

We do people post stuff to threads like this?

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 13 December 2003 02:28 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, how dare they want everyone to know they're unaffected enough to like Jay-Z! next thing you know they'll take their opinions public via the interweb!

― M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 13 December 2003 02:39 (twenty-two years ago)

This is precisely one of the most obnoxious aspects of pitchfork. They want everyone to know that they are unaffected enough to like jay z.

No, we want to correct you when you assume that if you read our magazine, you'll only get indie rock coverage.

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Saturday, 13 December 2003 02:57 (twenty-two years ago)

finally, statistics that prove pitchfork > beatles > jesus!

― Rob Mitchum, Saturday, 13 December 2003 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

ok sorry

― adam michel (adam michel), Saturday, 13 December 2003 03:56 (twenty-two years ago)

we want to correct you when you assume that if you read our magazine, you'll only get indie rock coverage.

Kind of a lose-lose around here. Either you're snooty indie elitists, or you're affected because you listen to Jay-Z. Like you're only doing that to impress ILM.

Jesus. Don't listen to us. Carry on.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 13 December 2003 05:48 (twenty-two years ago)

ILM keeps spawning new threads but the criticisms of the 'Fork get lazier and less resistant. I've seen enough screwball comedies to know that this is basically just a sex thing.

hehehe, pretty slick!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Saturday, 13 December 2003 07:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Pitchfork reviews, no matter how far off the mark, always manage to turn me on...

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 13 December 2003 07:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I, for one, am hard.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 13 December 2003 07:19 (twenty-two years ago)

the link they used to have to suicidegirls was really useful too.

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Saturday, 13 December 2003 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Hating on Pitchfork is terribly old. There are a lot of good albums in the Best New Music section.

― Patrick South (Patrick South), Saturday, 13 December 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, I've never even read P-fork, the only place I've ever even heard of it is on ILM. I am a very sheltered individual though.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Saturday, 13 December 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not a Pitchfork-hater. I just always take their reviews with a pinch (okay, a whole jar) of salt. We can all use a little smarm-o-lade now and then.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 13 December 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

why do ILXors act like reading Pitchfork is mandatory?

Because they never stop fucking talking about it!!

It's not that Pitchfork think (think?? thinks?? ahhh who gives a crap!!) they're so much cooler than everyone else because they're into cooler music than you, it's that they act like complete and total SMUG SMARMY ASSHOLES because of it. They say things like, "When Jeff Buckley first appeared on MTV, I gave the guy no chance. After all, he was entering the music world through MTV. My semi-permeable, jaded, college radio membrane would not allow bands attached to massive, corporate proteins passage into my brain." and be TOTALLY serious and condescending about it!!

Just like Robert Christgau!!

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Saturday, 13 December 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

How is that like Xgau?

― jaymc (jaymc), Saturday, 13 December 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

But you guys are lumping all their writers into one category. There are a number who aren't smug. They're knowledgeable and they don't take the indie elitist stance.

― Patrick South (Patrick South), Sunday, 14 December 2003 08:19 (twenty-two years ago)

not dead, merely sleeping

Eric Marth's Dumbest Fucking Hipster Trends of 2003

Photo contest: send picture of self combining all five and win a mesh trucker cap

05 Buying an iPod
04 Dancing
03 Parliaments
02 Embracing mainstream culture
01 Pabst Blue Ribbon

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

side note: who the fuck ARE all these "people" in the pfork year end thing?

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

ah they're the "newswriters". well this explains why they are the newswriters, i guess.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 14:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Eric Marth will save Pitchfork!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

there is no place for eric marth in this seasons pfork! not with ~~jann's~~ ryan's new pro-pop jihad!!

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"Hey Butthead, why are you so into butts?"

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

well, that sure destroyed the 'myth' that the news staff only listens to indie rock...(and a wee bit of indie hip-hop - although even that is rarely in the news section.)

― scott pl. (scott pl.), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

what kind of horrible bleak thunderdome-esque world is it where "dancing" is a hipster trend?

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

(and a dumb one at that.)

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

If dancing wasn't (at least at times WHERE I AM) a hipster trend I'd dance a lot more often

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Andrew, what? You don't dance because hipsters dance?

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

"i don't even know anymore."

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

God. After reading all of those lists, I half expected them to start going off on "White Power!" tangents....

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Cos I don't want to be judged by a bunch of fuckwit hipsters, yeah. Nice quote tho Jess

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm no good at ALL at dancing selfconciously, basically, boohoo

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe they are dancing because they've just discovered how to have fun after being indie jackasses for all these years. They are post-Pitchfork.

Fun doesn't need to be scary.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

They call their volunteers smurfs and expect blood. That's not right.

― Shaun (shaun), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

That yellow-and-red scratchy-blocky design scheme of their '03 In Review splash page makes me think of some bizarro-world Broadcast album entitled The Noise Made By Dickweeds.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Dear Jonah Flicker: The RZA album was that bad. Also: "Andrew and Big Boi"? And quit making me feel awkward for liking MF Doom.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Check out the splash page NOW.
Yuck

!!!

― Shaun (shaun), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 18:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Is there something wrong with my browser? My "lists" page only goes up to Cory Byrom's 10 Things That Will Definitely Happen in 2004. Then there are four additional section breaks -- but no text.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

(Although I guess it sounds as though I'm better off that way, huh?)

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I usually don't post on pitchfork threads, but that Ben Gibbard thing... eeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhg

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(Nevermind; it works in IE but not Netscape.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah Jesus, I thought maybe I'd buy that Pfork book (I mean, it's only nine bucks), but if this is the kinda shit that's in it...

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

jaymc - except for reprints of some of the year's news stories, none of that feature is going to be in the book. (also, I like your cover of 'the model'!)

― scott pl. (scott pl.), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Jaymc is Senor Coconut?

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Better yet, jaymc is Tremolo Beer Gut?

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

ha, no and no - although now I fear I've done something I shouldn't have done. sorry...

― scott pl. (scott pl.), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Here are pills for rave power
You eat and feel good
Go into the dance club
And go onto the floor
DJ starts the music
Kompressor locks the door
People stop their drinking
And go into a trance
Kompressor hate them because
KOMPRESSOR DOES NOT DANCE!!!
KOMPRESSOR DOES NOT DANCE!!!
Kompressor does not dance
KOMPRESSOR DOES NOT DANCE!!!
Kompressor does not dance
You do not use a Macintosh
Instead you use a Tandy
KOMPRESSOR BREAK YOUR GLOWSTICK!
KOMPRESSOR EAT YOUR CANDY!
Kompressor opens jaws
Kompressor release ants
Kompresser watch you scream because
KOMPRESSOR DOES NOT DANCE!!!
KOMPRESSOR DOES NOT DANCE!!!
Kompressor does not dance
KOMPRESSOR DOES NOT DANCE!!!
Kompressor does not dance
You like to eat the rave drugs
You get more energy
You think it's worth the money
But we do not agree
We make pill of poison
We sell you stimulants
Kompressor watch you die because
KOMPRESSOR DOES NOT DANCE!!!
KOMPRESSOR DOES NOT DANCE!!!
Kompressor does not dance
KOMPRESSOR DOES NOT DANCE!!!
Kompressor does not dance

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Heh, thanks, Scott! (If it must be known [who am I kidding, I love the attention], my band, Canasta, covers "The Model" in a chamber-pop stylee.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

And to clarify my point about the "shit" on Pfork today, it's mostly just because there's such an inordinate focus on post-collegiate indie. (Which is to say, Matthew OTM upthread.) Forget tallying up the number of times the White Stripes were mentioned in the news, who wins this feature? The Shins? Yo La Tengo? Ben Gibbard?

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I realize some might find it ironic that I'm bitching about "post-collegiate indie" when I'm in a "chamber-pop" band, but fuck all y'all.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(Oh wait, I guess you made a similar point about the staff and indie rock, too, Scott.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know which I'm more excited to read on Friday, the list of Pitchfork's favourite records or the list of Michael Jackson's favourite children.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 22:27 (twenty-two years ago)

It's true, Pitchfork loves its fave records VERY much.

― dleone (dleone), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Funny, I only read ILX when it's linked to the Pitchfork Message Board (I'm one of the Pfork News Writers, but you probably wouldn't know it from actually reading Pitchfork's Newswire). I find that ILX posts (about Pfork, or anything else for that matter -- OK, so I occasionally browse after reading the popinion of that day's reviews) read exactly the same forward and backward. I could start from the last post and it rarely diverges from the first. Anyhow, yes, there's a lot of Pfork hating on this board. Maybe Ryan is trying to steer the site's content direction toward more hip-hop and pop, but it's a reflection of the writers' interests and the site's growing popularity among music fans, not just indie fans. Let's be honest, it's an indie rock website that's taking on more music and styles as it gains relevance and readership. The writing is good. The news coverage is good. The writers are creative and, once in awhile, the content is worth reading just for the clever prose, even if I don't give a squat about the band or agree with the grade. In defense of the News Writer lists -- this was to be a fun little item to run as a sidebar to the two big lists over three days. The fact that Ryan decided to run them on their own and the positive feedback we've gotten (I've gotten) says a lot. Yes, admitedly, the lists are awfully indie-centric, but look hard enough and you'll find a few mentions of singer/songwriters, Latin jazz, country, metal, hardcore, and experimental, among others. Enjoy it if you can, but it's not worth picking apart too much.

― Ryan G, Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Ryan we love PFM now - check the singles list thread!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

What is the latest url for the PF message board?

― Jeff-PTTL (Jeff), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the Pitchfork board is private and biz-oriented. Christ, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it in the first place -- It's not like this is the Chicago Tribune or anything!

― Ryan G, Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

he means the old PFMS board not the staff one. (nuts, ryan, I liked your list - I knew that Pabst/dancing/iPod stuff would get a deserving savaging, though!)

― scott pl. (scott pl.), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey Scott...Thanks, but the indie hipster list was li'l Eric Marth's. I made a list of suggestions that went a suttin like dix:

Annoying Indie Hipster Trends '03
1) Writing for PitchforkMedia.com
2) The color pink
3) Mesh trucker caps
4) Bandanas as neckwear (also an annoying hip-hop trend)
5) Playing "percussion" instead of drums

― Ryan G, Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I know - I meant your 'missed albums' list. That other one is the one instance I butted in and tried to say, erm, I dunno about this...ha, I should stay out of this and go back to making jokes about our singles list including Spoon and too much rock...;)

― scott pl. (scott pl.), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Ahhhh! Eureka. Voila! Thanks Scott. The original version had genre for each artist/album (similar to the Best New Music feature), but that unfortunately got cut. Oh, well. Hopefully folks will still check out a few (God Bless Slsk, although I'm currently not actively using it -- it'll come in handy when I start my personal best of '03 discs. Last year's ran 9 CD-R80s long and was all about Li'l Flip).

― Ryan G, Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

ha - I was going to suggest that you include a brief description of each record and really pick up the reviewer's slack in that way as well, but I was trying to keep out of it.

― scott pl. (scott pl.), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

mark, who is responsible for that song?

― Felcher (Felcher), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Es ist KOMPRESSOR:

Name: ANDREAS K

Instruments: SYNTH, CRUSH, FEAR, DEATH

Influences: NO

http://www.kompressormusic.com/pics/k/k-burger.jpg

― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 18 December 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

My dog loves that song.

― adam (adam), Thursday, 18 December 2003 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Eric Marth's Dumbest Fucking Hipster Trends of 2003 is a real good list.

― adam michel (adam michel), Friday, 19 December 2003 00:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"KOMPRESSOR crush american burger"

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Friday, 19 December 2003 00:33 (twenty-two years ago)

three months pass...

Seriously Michel, I am so beating the crap out of you next time I see you.

Yours truly,
Your Face

― Your Face, Saturday, 20 March 2004 07:47 (twenty-two years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.