HIPSTER (the pit of vipers)

How about trying liking things because you like them and working your way onwards from there?

That's how we all start, but the working your way onwards is the painful part. Learning what you like and don't like about who or whatever in music is a long process, of course fraught with all sorts of classism and elitism and... well, that's always been the way. This isn't the specific domain of some Wicker Park stereotype. It's the way people who think a lot about music act toward one other more often than not. It's not a sin. And sure, there's always some numbnut who's ready to jump from the shadows and dis your favorite band. Not just here. Anywhere.

But any of this seemingly unnecessary pain is worth it to anyone who doesn't care to listen to the same shit over and over for the rest of his life.

bbbut--that's *why* i thought it was funny...
it's a nice rant, with a few amusing zingers in it; but it looks like it's just designed to wind people up.

Why do care about music at all? Have you ever thought about why musicians (i.e. real other human beings) create the cultural production that they do? Like, the effort tutelage and so forth that so many amazing creators have invested in all sorts of disparate formalist musics; and the individual fits of pique which have led to so many striking outsider manifestos. Maybe that could be important to you. Maybe you could train your ears to listen to lots of music, and enjoy it for its humanism. If not, perhaps you could join a community organization. Like, cleaning parks or something. Maybe you should begin to pay attention to your local sports team. You might find that you derive more enjoyment out of the endeavor. Or perhaps, study the stock tables published every morning in your local paper. You might find that patterns emerge. You might be able to capitalize on those patterns in some manner. This could possibly lead to some pecuniary reward.

The Sean you all know, saturnsf@yahoo.com

the real flaw here is that 'hipsters' may be full of shit but generally they're pretty social and like getting along (you know, like people everywhere). so, IF you look like someone cool (cf gareth's otm-ness upthread about appearance) you can say any damn thing about anyone and chances are you'll get a 'yeah dude' out of it.

He wants the hipsters to know he's beaten them, and that they're game was stupid to begin with, which may or may not be mutually exclusive. neither one will GET YOU IN, though.

It's no problem. Enjoy what you can. Put up with what you can't. No-one worth their salt will hate you for it. That goes for music and music criticism. And websites. And food. Especially food.

Basically: Frankie say: "relax"

But today nobody wants to be a hipster. It's always those other people. The way I see it, today the hipster either
a) knows less about said hip subject than you [they have a less broad picture of it] and doesn't match your sincerity or
b) knows more about said hip subject than you and is arrogant about it.

When the war in Iraq was beginning I read two arguments about it on two different boards. On one board, someone called the anti-war protesters "hipsters". On the other board, someone called the pro-war people "hipsters".

As for the original post: there but for the grace of god, there go I, I-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi.

*I actually saw the peak of this while at Karaoke with Matos and a couple friends: a dude in a PBR trucker hat. He sang "Jumpin' Jack Flash".

Greece, by all means.

*

The older I get, the more I think that searching for completely pure motivation in yourself or in anyone else is a waste of time and energy.

How can people go on knowing that people are probably thinking things about them

But since he's not one of my most favorite salsa singers, it doesn't mean too much.)

Here's my thought on the post: Undeniably, people gravitate toward certain kinds of music for reasons that aren't exclusively aesthetic. But does anyone really champion something that they don't genuinely like on some level? I mean, yeah, when I first started reading ILM, I was attracted to the social contrarianism (at least within my peer group) of listening to pop music. But as a listener, it also felt incredibly refreshing: I realized I loved all the cool sounds, the beats, the catchy melodies. And why not? Before I was 14, all I listened to was Top 40 and hip-hop radio; this kind of music has always been in my blood somehow.

And maybe some people do get into a genre of music because it seems like the "cool" thing to do, but once they really explore it, they'll find the specific artists that speak to them aesthetically and then it just turns into simple enjoyment. In the end, if I like both Justin Timberlake and Tortoise, it's not because they increase my hipster cred (even if I initially thought they were "cool") -- it's because they're both melodic and jazzy (in other words, essential aesthetic qualities that have always spoken to me).

I wish!

x-post

Thanks; see I miss this stuff. I have no connection with the critics things, other than friends who do it.

To be honest, even here, I haven't read NME for 5 years so don't know anyone other than a friend who's involved there. Most of the critics I know now are guys who do post to ILX from time to time.

God, I can't believe I know that much about him.

Only difference being Ebert doesn't come across as an elitist ranting 24/7 against "mainstream Hollywood" and the "idiots" who "lap it up".

xpost

-- Arthur M. Martinez (amvipfa...), January 30th, 2004 1:58 PM. (link) (admin) (userip)

This is the most eloquent response to "DeRo": if people can't see the enthusiasm, if not the viper enthusiasm, on ILM then they're deluding themselves.

Haha

This thread is still hilarious

The title!

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1115/tmee.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAHw5IxaruY

Yet throw up something more beloved, more sainted and canonized – Kraftwerk, let’s say, or Erik Satie or Sun Ra – elevate it to godhead and you will find someone ready to play the trump card of contrarianism. There is always someone prepared to melt the sacred cows down to bullion with the well-tuned phrase.

Some attract more contrarianism than others, eg The Beatles, probably the #1 contrarian target that I can think of right now. But I would think contrarians would be most provoked by a combination of perceived preciousness or pretentiousness, 'centrality' in the canon, and mainstream popularity.

So are there canonized bands that don't provoke contrarians? I've never heard, for example, anyone seriously attempt to be contrarian about Ozzy-era Black Sabbath.

can the hardened hipster really plausibly tear down the likes of kraftwerk, satie or ra? I'D LIKE TO SEE IT.

Googling 'i hate erik satie' I came across this from 2009:

A final thought: I would like to call a moratorium on anyone between the ages of 18 and 34 yammering on about Erik Satie. We know: you just discovered him, you love him, Parisian Bohemian Dadaist, etc. I hope they play Gymnopédie No.1 at your funeral. Did this just get added to Concordia's FFAR 250 curriculum recently? On an Animal Collective mix-tape I missed? I still claim he invented Muzak.

I remember hearing a lot more of this attitude in the 90s when there was a sudden surge of interest in Satie, probably due to inclusion in some movie soundtrack.

kraftwerk were a bad band with a lame gimmick. mostly.
satie is hollow drivel.
sun ra made more bad records than good ones.

actually i'm not sure i believe that last one. most of the sun ra records i've heard are quite good.

the last one is the only one I completely agree with

he made a lot of mediocre records, idk about bad. he certainly made many more good records than kraftwerk did.

http://www.tutankhamunshop.co.uk/acatalog/ra-egyptian-sun-big.jpg

bring it, hipsters

http://www.tutankhamunshop.co.uk/acatalog/ra-egyptian-sun-big.jpg

Black Sabbath were just a bunch of stoners who discovered the fuzz pedal and the pentatonic scale and squeezed every last drop out of it.

Actually, not sure why that's a bad thing.

I could probably come up with a line for Lou Reed. I really, really dislike his solo stuff, including transformer.

hating on things is way more fun than talking about how much you like things, cuz when you like something you're just being earnest and there's nothing funny about saying "hey man, this is a great record!" it's much funnier to talk about things that you don't like.

like, i don't like the kinks outside of a few songs. they're no troggs, that's for sure.

the first time i heard gymnopedie was indeed at the end of my dinner w andre

I also do not like the kinks outside of their big hits. I find Village Green unlistenable.

Also, no good music has ever come from the continent of Africa -- all these afro-punk-funk-rock compilers are kidding themselves.*

*j/k

contrarianism /= hipsterism. the satie diss scans hipsterish because of the pretense of worldliness and expertise that it assumes in order to more effectively sneer at arrivistes who heard of satie through a movie or some such. the contemptuous sarcasm of "i hope they play gymnopédie no 1 at your funeral". it's an attack not on the music, but on a certain type of listener.

Chain and the Gang track is so great. love that whole album. Ian is funny!

contrarianism /= hipsterism. the satie diss scans hipsterish because of the pretense of worldliness and expertise

True, but he also writes 'I still claim he invented Muzak,' which reads like an attack on the music.

I didn't know about Chain and the Gang until now. Got inspired to revisit Make-Up and NOU as a result.

i think the attack on the music is where the hipsterism falls down, cuz that's a pretty tired thing to say about satie. ian is making a good go of it, but it still seems a bit challopy rather than the (illusion of) sincere takedown demanded.

so is "the pit of vipers" hipsters or ilx?

accusing someone of contrarianism = "instead of accepting your statement and arguing against it I'm just going to pretend you don't even believe it yourself which is pretty much just an asshole move that will make the argument last longer and get progressively more meaningless"

― some dude, Tuesday, 7 October 2008 18:15 (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

quoted for truth