What is this 'backpacker' sound and why can't I like it?

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Or 'undie'. Please answer without reference to the the music's target demographic(s).

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Because backpacker music is weak.

― sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 09:39 (twenty-two years ago)

It will make you weak.

― sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 09:40 (twenty-two years ago)

It's rapping without a sense of rhythm - check El-P for reference. You can like it, but the puritans won't like you.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 09:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Weak like Belle and Sebastian? I'm not a puritan, obviously: you can't *be* a puritan hip-hop fan because hip-hop has never been a doctrinnaire music.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

you can't *be* a puritan hip-hop fan

You'd be surprised.

― sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 09:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I know that people *are* puritan hip-hop fans. But you can't in good faith *be* one.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 09:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I am so confused.

― sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

enrique:

backpacker/undie sound is stereotypically marked by dark, murky, lo-fi production, abstract/spacey/jokey/'idm-influenced' (oh god) beats, over-convoluted, 'clever,' paranoid, doesn't-scan-properly-and-isn't-funny lyrics, you can't really dance to it, it attempts little or not engagement with the outside world (because ideologically, undie rap = opposed to the mainstream and everything in it. aspects of the mainstream that undie rap seems to dislike include fun, success, intelligibility, and leaving the house.)

this may all be a gross exaggeration of course but there you go, it's the stereotype, and i don't think it's too hard to understand why some people think this music is shit and that, further, why people who liking it might in some way like it because it sets itself in opposition to everything else in hip hop, in which case, how can they really be hip hop fans, etc. btw i like mf doom.

― pete b. (pete b.), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

you can't really dance to it

oh, god, no! NO!!!

― el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:10 (twenty-two years ago)

OK variously here are some of the things that might turn me off a hip-hop track - there are exceptions to pretty much all of these. I don't know exactly what backpacker hip-hop is and it seems to encompass a huge range of things but from what I've heard it seems prone to some of the following errors.

- fucking with the rapping at the expense of flow, by eg. cramming more words in than the rapper can actually handle; cramming more words in than ANY rapper could actually handle; ostentatious vocabulary demonstrations; too-complicated 'battle' metaphors that remind you of when a smart kid at school (maybe you!) would wait a second or two too long thinking of a 'snappy' comeback rather than just saying 'fuck off'. The MCs I like best are the kind that make it sound easy until you actually try.

- fucking with the beats at the expense of groove by eg. making them absurdly harsh; filling the track up with experimental noises. Now hard beats and weird noises are also a major reason to adore hip-hop so this is a particularly grey area but harshness and weirdness appeals most when it's balanced against something, like eg danceability (or even head-noddability). There's a tension and thrill to "how fucked-up can we make this track and it still be a banger?" which there isn't to "how fucked-up can we make this track?"

- at the other extreme, making beats that rely too strictly on a received idea of what 'hip-hop' beats are - see Fritz's realness thread. Crate-digging tastefulness is a bore.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Hm, I mean I started the thread with no idea of what backpacker is. I had assumed it meant Jurassic 5 or whatever, who I don't hate exactly, or at least who I hate less than alleged hip-hop fans who judge music on who listens to it (ie 'backpacker'=white, suburban, so not 'real' fans).

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Well J5 would fall under #3 in my list which is the hardest one to actually quantify.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Indeed. I mean Jay-Z gets away with outrageously obvious Jackson 5 samples, so...

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:32 (twenty-two years ago)

The more obvious the sample the better in my view.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:35 (twenty-two years ago)

That's right mate!

It's been a long time, we shouldna left you etc, etc

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

obvious samples = opposite of crate-digging!
xpost

― pete b. (pete b.), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:38 (twenty-two years ago)

making beats that rely too strictly on a received idea of what 'hip-hop' beats are=obvious samples though

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:40 (twenty-two years ago)

right, but i think the key word is 'tasteful' ie restrained, respectful. there's nothing restrained or tasteful or respectful about jay-z's jackson 5 sample, it's just an outrageous pop hook isn't it, not an attempt at some kind of classicism?

― pete b. (pete b.), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:46 (twenty-two years ago)

jay-z's jackson 5 sample, it's just an outrageous pop hook isn't it, not an attempt at some kind of classicism?

I would say it was both.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:47 (twenty-two years ago)

not *just* an attempt at some kind of classicism, i should have said

― pete b. (pete b.), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:49 (twenty-two years ago)

My contention would be that obscure breaks play more of a part in forming most producers' idea (and its that 'received idea' I was talking about, not the public's received idea) of hip-hop than flagrant samples do.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Fair point. I heard a Jungle Bros track this morning that used 'Don't Stop Till You Get Enough' in the most blatant way, but it *felt* too respectful. Dunno when the track was recorded.

Anyway, for the record,

Boney M >>>>>> that Mark Ronson record

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 10:50 (twenty-two years ago)

http://hipsterdetritus.blogspot.com/ohgreat.JPG

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Heh. There's a big article about backpacker rap in SPIN this month, but they call it "Emo rap." Surely this is the kiss of death!

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 12:59 (twenty-two years ago)

"emo" = "expresses thoughts that are not entirely fueled by cockiness, bravado, anger or happiness"

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Music that is frightened of life and living

― Stringent (Stringent), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, frightened of life and living

I mean christ, at least pretend to know something about it before dismissing it

("but those lyrics are lame!" blah blah blah.)

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

So are 'Clouddead' and 'The Anti-Pop Consortium' etc backpacker music?

― mzui, Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, definitely, mzui.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

yes - they're the absolute definition of backpacker/undie

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Nate - I'm really glad that there are people attempting to find emotional, topical, and musical niches within the realm of hip hop which haven't been fully explored to date. I just wish that a lot of the people filling those niches and exploring those areas were, you know, better at what they do. I get the impression that this whole first/second wave of "backpacker"/"emo" hip hop will lead to another generation with the same interests/tastes, but with less strident anti-mainstream politics and better all-around skills.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Cool, thanks, well I like it I guess....

― mzui, Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

tom is exactly right about the intense verbosity of a lot of undie rapping, it's the most off-putting thing about all of it. that said though, there are some great undie-rap records like quasimoto's the unseen, buck 65's square, sixtoo's antagonist survival kit etc. i also like the jaylib album, but most def jux stuff leaves me pretty cold - and it's probably supposed to. went to see el-p and mr lif at the ica (venue should give you some idea of where this music places itself) a while ago, for work i might add, and the audience was about 98 per cent white, 99 per cent male and absolutely motionless right the way thru.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

why the hell do backpacks have to get dragged into this whole thing

― andrew s, Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Tico Tico OTM, especially on his first point. I've nothing against experimental beats, but I hate rappers who sound like they should do poetry readings instead of rapping, and these mostly fall into undie category. There's a rhythm to that thing, dammit.

There are good undie rappers, obviously, like the guys from Dilated Peoples, but they fall into the trap of thinking that "old school is everything" and having nothing else to say but "I'm the best MC". Luckily there are some undie rappers who are both good rappers/lyricists and have good imaginative beats, like Divine Styler. Can't think of anyone else right now, but there must be others...

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

slum village are about the way i like it - they have quite an undie aesthetic but they can rock. they totally hit it square in the middle, for my money

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with Enrique's basic point though to get to the musical reasons why people might not like this stuff - the audience make-up just isn't as important to me as it might be for some people because

i) I'm British so I'm de facto outside the realm of realness on this one.

ii) I'm white and middle class and often absolutely motionless - liking Lil Jon does not make me any cooler, it just makes me more likely to argue with my co-workers when they slag off rap.

I don't think the audience make-up is irrelevant though, with any group or scene there's a feedback between what they're doing and the audience they find and there's always the risk of stagnation on that basis.

x-post I also don't believe there's only one good way of rapping, in fact I like a lot of 'bad' rapping, but shouty enthusiasm will always do it for me whereas tongue-twisters won't.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Does MF Doom qualify as an undie/backpacker rapper, or is he just an unpopular rapper? I really like him, but his fanbase seems largely comprised of undie fans in spite of his music having more in common with, say, the Wu-Tang Clan than Native Tongues or Def Jux, etc.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

The Def Jux folks can be okay sometimes - there's a few El-P songs which work for me, and "The Fire In Which You Burn" by Company Flow is a pretty great song. Just saying.

Overall, I think Tico Tico really nails it.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

mf doom has an undie fanbase, definitely, but musically i don't think he fulfils any of Tico's 3 points above. he's funny & straightforward lyrically and his beats are unfussy, head-nodding, weird sometimes but never overly-abstract. a lot of the time he sounds to me like he'd like to make big club bangers but he just doesn't have the budget, which is quite an endearing aesthetic...

― pete b. (pete b.), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

emo=esoteric musical oratory

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 21 January 2004 14:13 (twenty-two years ago)

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf400/f476/f47601t7dwi.jpg

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

backpacker = dudes carry their backpacks = they have access to their notebook & their big bag of weed at all times = convoluted "awesome"ness?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.nps.gov/discovery2000/precon/photos/backpacks.jpg

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

backpacker = dudes carry their backpacks = they have access to their notebook & their big bag of weed at all times = convoluted "awesome"ness?

I have a backpack. Contents: phone, wallet, novel, keys, minidisc, ie really need smaller bag. Why 'undie'?

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing that bugs me about the so-called "backpacker" backlash is when people say they don't like abstract, wordy lyrics in hip-hop yet they have not problem with abstract, wordy lyrics in other styles of music. For example, how many the Fall fans on ILM have taken anti-backpacker stances, yet if Mark E. Smith were rapping over samples and breakbeats rather than droney punk music, he'd be as backpacker as they come.

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

The words-per-minute density in a Fall song is way less than in a backpacker track though.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Also o. that's kind of a big "if" - the tracks where MES does do his thing over breakbeats and samples tend to be pretty rubbish after all. Maybe droney punk would be a better fit to DoseOne or whoever too!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Lil Jon is terrible.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"emo" = "totally rhthymless and just as derivitive as anything else."

― David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

However, in theory, I would love super weird hip hop that wasn't as overtly misogynst/downright retarded as Lil Jon.

Wu Tang is almost there. Using Ennio Morricone samples and rapping about Kung Fu (and being awesome at it) is probably as close as Ill ever get.

― David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

The words-per-minute density in a Fall song is way less than in a backpacker track though

I'm not so sure about that. I've heard Fall songs that would outdo plenty of backpacker tracks in that category.

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Call me ignorant, though, but I can't see how, say, Ugly Duckling (who's MO is to make rap as simple as possible) and Antipop Consortium (who's MO is to make rap as complicated as possible) can be conflated into any kid of scene. Surely all they have in common is that they both sell less than Fiddy Sen?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

So you're looking for the exact same thing in every genre of music and judge each genre on the exact same criteria?

― Colin Beckett (Colin Beckett), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

No, but I think the ball is in the anti-backpackers court to explain why they think abstract, wordy lyrics are okay in some styles but not in hip-hop. I'm not an essentialist. I don't believe in the purity of genres. I don't agree that their is a platonic ideal form of a musical style that every practictioner of that style must aspire to. So I don't see any reason to dictate that "Hip hop must be like this" or "Punk music must be like that".

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

O Nate if you'd give me an example of a good Fall song with lyrics that densely packed I might be able to answer! Generally when MES is doing very complex lyrics he slips into a kind of spoken-word style, so his rhythms are more like speech-rhythms - that works better for dense lyrics I reckon than rapping them does, where the flow and the content are much more likely to be fighting one another for the listener's attention.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

But I don't think anyone is dictating what hip hop should be like. Tom and others were speaking in general terms to describe what they don't like about music that's often classified from as "backpacker". Forgetting genres, it still seems silly to say because one likes wordy, abstract lyrics in a Fall song, they'll like the same thing in an El-P song.

― Colin Beckett (Colin Beckett), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

there is a certain amount of hypocrisy in blindly dissing any hip-hop that isn't of the mainstream yet being able to appreciate other underground genres, as much as it's stupid only to champion obscure music at the expense of popular genres. it's laying an expectation on a style of music and not letting it deviate/change/grow... i'm all for rejecting the canon and received notions of taste etc, but this is where it goes too far and becomes as stupid as adhering to those q/mojo/nu-leavisite ideas of what's "right" to like. also when doing this with traditionally "black" music (yes, i know plenty undie rap is as white as it gets but a lot isn't), this throws up thorny issues of racial stereotyping etc. ("rap has to be bangin', and full guz and niggaz. keep it real mo'fucka and big up the homiez n tha hood!" says john q downloader from pinner.) that said, i have to agree with the general feeling that the majority of undie rap is a bit duff. just approach stuff with an open ear and make up your mind without preconceptions, that's my advice.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

The biggest problem I see with backpacker isn't the beats, which are often compelling and evocative, but the vocal stylings, and in that it's not the lyrics that bother me so much as the eschewing of rhythm in pursuit of attempts at mind-blowing lyricism. I keep wanting to tell these people 'stick to the page if you're gonna do it like that'.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Funnily enough, o., my feeling is that one of the things that puts peopel's backs up about undie hip hop is this whiff of the artists thinking "this is real hip hop, the pure stuff... mainstream hip hop is hopelessly compromised".

I'm not sure that's a fair observation but it's certainly my perception and I'm put off* by that kind of purism.

(*At least I am now: it reminds me very much of the kind of 'pure pop' talk I/we used to come out with to defend our beloved indie in the mid-80s when indie was still an outlying branch of pop rather than a genre in its own right with its own centre... but that's enough about indie.)

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

And do some songs about fucking.

x-post

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

NB I ought to say that I have no problem at all with the subject matter of 'undie' hip-hop, I don't think hip-hop should always talk about guns, weed, cash, sex etc. and anyway it's a generalisation to say that the mainstream does only discuss those things. The themes aren't the issue at all for me.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

nah but there's quite a lot of unnecessary sneering done about undie rap (the name probably doesn't help either!) that is predicated on a belief of what hip-hop "should" be equally as prevalent among fansd of the mainstream as those retrogressive/over-wordy/overcomplicated/rhythmically fucked up backpacker types. as per, i'm sitting on the fence here

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Most Fall songs are densely packed lyrically. (If you want a specific example, try "CnC- Stop Mithering".) There are some "backpacker" rappers who are more dense (e.g. Aesop Rock) and there are others that are probably about the same (e.g., El-P). I don't think the difference in word density is all that great. Perhaps you find that Mark E. Smith's flow is better than the backpackers whom I've named, and maybe it is. For one thing, Smith usually does not constrain himself to have each line end on a hard rhyme. His lyrics are more in the manner of free verse, with soft rhymes and internal rhymes more frequent than the traditional end-of-line rhyme. The repetitiveness of hard rhymes at the end of each line can be wearying. No doubt there are some things that the backpackers could learn from Smith, and perhaps none of the current crop are as gifted lyricists as he was in his heyday, but that doesn't mean that one couldn't come along, and that if they did, there music would be any less valid than Smith's.

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

DS: yes that's true and wrong from both directions.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

and i do have quite a few problems with the subject matter of undie rap, especially the "my records don't sell shit but eminem's at the top of the charts and i'm so damned better than him" kind of themes. simple answer: stop twatting about making stuff people want to hearr, rather than being wilfully obscure, then!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh yeah that kind of stuff is nonsense, I was thinking more of the idea of "emo" rap, "weakness", scared of life etc. - those particular attacks do nothing for me.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

just noticed my typo "hearr" - this totally unintentionally = chingy/nelly!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

and that the entire second sentence makes no sense in a double-negative kinda way, but you get me anyway...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

did any of you notice that one of the ying yang twins is wearing a backpack in the 'salt shaker' video?

― cloverlandthug, Wednesday, 21 January 2004 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

it's set in a big empty hangar thing with a firetruck and a girl with a firehat, not a school or anything.

― cloverlandthug, Wednesday, 21 January 2004 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

hahaha! i've just been asked if i want to interview clouddead!
(said no, btw)

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

But the sounds like it would be a great time! You could interview them in the style of their lyrics.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

seven years pass...

is it time for a critical reappraisal of 'backpacker' shit yet?????

every ilm thread with word 'backpacker' in the title is terrible btw

― Lamp, Tuesday, 23 August 2011 05:00 (fourteen years ago)

fun. crusher. plus.

― the wheelie king (wk), Tuesday, 23 August 2011 06:48 (fourteen years ago)

Tried By 12! What ever happened to East Flatbush Project?

― the wheelie king (wk), Tuesday, 23 August 2011 07:04 (fourteen years ago)

I'm scared to read what I wrote on this thread. I don't know if Tanya Morgan is backpacker, but I liked their last album.

― o. nate, Tuesday, 23 August 2011 19:07 (fourteen years ago)

holy shit this thread is about the fall

― gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 23 August 2011 19:51 (fourteen years ago)

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