History Will Forget Them

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The Dismembment Plan
The Vines

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Sique Sique Sputnik

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Le Tigre
Metric
The Faint

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Sique Sique Sputnik

Future tense!

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Moby

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Public Enemy
NWA
James Brown

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

James Brown????????????????????????????????????????????

Live
Sheryl Crow

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Geir Hongro.

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Nelly

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

History will forget whatever is not melodic. Look at classic music history - the pieces that are most well-known today are the most melodic ones.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

let's be honest...prob. a ton of obscure stuff that we talk about everyday on ILM....

also,

Geir --- YOOO SO CRAZY!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 26 January 2004 22:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Geir's like ILX's answer to Lee Evans, only less sweaty. Oh, yeah, and TOTALLY FUCKING INSANE.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

On a paleolithic scale, yeah history will forget every fucker.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

"These are the remains of a humanoid from roughly 2000 AD. What we can tell by looking at his diet and bone structure was that he was the drummer for The Delays"

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

the guys who really discovered penicillin.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

dom I kiss you

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

stravinsky, schoenberg, varese, and webern haven't been forgotten ... and they are still remembered in no small part for their works that aren't up to geir's melodic standards.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

e.g., i can't see geir liking "rites of spring" or "pierrot lunaire" very much can you?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

How many people not particularly into music will be able to whistle "Rites Of Spring"

I am speaking of truly classical stuff such as "The Four Seasons" or "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" here. Those are the ones that have really survived, not only amongst "fans", but amongst everybody.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

So has "Get on the Good Foot"

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, not even the nonmelodic stuff by the famous composers is remembered. Probably just for the better, that gangstarap piece Mozart did was downright embarassing

― Øystein H-O (Øystein H-O), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Yo! Yo! Yo! Don't be dissin' the South Side Veinna Valkyrie Posse!

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

The old composeres did a lot of string quartets etc. that didn't really have very obviously recognizable melodic themes.

These days they may still be picked out by snobs and elitists, but they are unknown to the man on the street, who prefers "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik".

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

um, "the rites of spring" is one of stravinsky's best-known works ... even among non-classical people!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

but they are unknown to the man on the street, who prefers "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik".
I thought the man on the street prefer's Beyonce Knowles?

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

and i'm REALLY interested in this new wrinkle in yer thinking, geir -- that classical music is somehow only "eternal" if ordinary folks can whistle it!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

What if everyone in the future actualy did think like Geir?
If they carelessly discarded James Brown's legacy due to its 'lack of melodic value'?

Fucking scary aint it?

― pete s, Monday, 26 January 2004 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.liquidvibes.co.uk/img/alt1/s2.gif

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

"eternal music"?
Hmmmm....
Why don't we reconvene here in the year 3504 and see who history has forgotten.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

James Brown is excellent whistling music.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

geir, it sounds like you want it both ways. on one hand, you say that "eternal" music (i.e., "good" music to you) is only stuff with readily-memorable melody. then, you say that you're annoyed with very rhythmic stuff but has ALSO been around for a while (maybe not as long as "eine kleine Nachtmusik," but bo diddley first did his thing almost 50 years ago and people still recognize his stuff!)

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

'snobs and elitists'

cf all your comments about musical genres you dont like ever.

And i'm not even going to bother with that horse shit you're spouting about classical music. It's funny how you're always using the phrase 'the western european tradition' and you dont know a goddamned thing about it...in future everything you're commenting on should only be referenced to 'the kindergarten nursery rhyme tradition i learned in Norway'. That's all you know about really.

― pete s, Monday, 26 January 2004 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Man, Geir, I can get at least 4 minutes or so into the Rite of Spring whistling and humming!

― Clarke B., Monday, 26 January 2004 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I agree with Geir on the whole issue of whether the Rites Of Spring has been "remembered" as such. I doubt my dad could hum any of it, but I bet he'd recognise Beethoven's fifth. Whether this means that anti-tune music will indeed be forgotten as time goes by is moot. For all that I love atonality, there are times when I suspect that we hipsters are only pretending to like such things and would much rather enjoy some lovely song with proper melodies.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

by the way, it's nice to see that people still respond to Geir's comments with polite, well-argued responses. Oh no wait, that's one of Momus' alternate worlds.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 26 January 2004 23:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Er, wait a minute DV Geir's not talking *exclusively* about atonal music as you seem to be implying, he wrote 'the old composers did a lot of sting quartets etc. that didn' really have very obviously recognizable melodic themes. These Days they may still be picked out by snobs and elitists but they are unknown to the man on the street, who prefers 'Eine Kleine Nachtmusik'. This is bullshit pure and simple, and only reflects Geir's 'elitism' about classical music.
He's quite correct though; the string quartets of Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, the keyboard works of Bach, the piano sonatas of Beethoven, the operas of Handel, the symphonies of Beethoven, the songs of Schumann, the madrigals of Monteverdi, the operas of Wagner are all real music, not fucking lollipops. I dont care if i never hear Eine Kleine Nachtmusik (which was a trifle even for Mozart) again in my life, and i consider myself an ordinary music-lover, not a music-scholar. Likewise i know lots of ppl who are not 'snobs or elitist' but listen to substansial pieces all the time. Geir has nothing NOTHING to say on the subject of classical music as he has proved time and time again. Dont try and make out his ill-informed crap is somehow a 'blow for the ordinary person'.

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:07 (twenty-two years ago)

In any case, all these works are packed with melodies, just not the kind Geir can understand because they are not nursery rhyme simple tra-la-la ditties. The melodies in Bach for example are very advanced, drawn out, cyclical, fugual, punctuated with lots of subsidiary melodies, inversions, rhythmic and harmonic devices.
Beethoven's melodies can be subtle, unappealing at first hearing, naive, banal. Music perfectly merges melody with harmony, tonal palette, drama, and form. You cant seperate it out like some orchestra playing the hits of Queen or the Sex Pistols.
'Modern' music harks back to an even older, pre-baroque traditon where melody was insignifigant as a compositional element in music.

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:21 (twenty-two years ago)

the man on the street doesn't write the history books...

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:24 (twenty-two years ago)

no but the man on the street goes to concerts and appreciates good music.

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not defending the man not on the street or maligning the man on the street. Just noting that just because something is popular doesn't mean it'll necessarily make the cut, history books-wise.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:34 (twenty-two years ago)

There are parts of Rite of Spring that are achingly lovely, if never lite-lovely.

― Clarke B., Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:45 (twenty-two years ago)

But then again Beethoven was rarely lite-lovely!

― Clarke B., Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah true. Or it will. I've got music books from every decade since the 1920s; lots of blanket dismissal/disparagement of contemporary music from R.Strauss to Stravinsky and Britten. The music's survived, and grown in stature and influence not only because of reassesment by other authors but also because of its popularity with audiences, who loved its freshness. The closer the publication date gets to 1960 the more you see acceptance of the classic status of Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Webern, Bartok. Also every pre-1960 book is sniffy about Mahler. Come the mid-60s and suddenly Mahler's wildly popular with the public who are attending performances of his work in hordes. Time for revision, and now Mahler is the missing link between romanticism and modernist orchestral chamber-writing, not to mention his pessimistic themes. Well listeners recognized that before historians did.

x-post to Dan

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

That books link should be ignored. I fear Johnny Fitz's virus has affected my system.

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Deleted the link.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks!

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 00:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I know it's not relevant to Stravinsky so much but history books about popular culture tend to focus on things that were successful in gaining at least some kind of mass audience. History may not be written by the man in the street but it is written by the winners.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 01:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Except most of Mozart's works have been considerably more popular after his death. Not to mention Bach's works (which were incredibly melodic at times too)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 01:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah i agree like the music is only relevant insofar as it affected mass culture/trends.

x-post

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 01:07 (twenty-two years ago)

this is a good point. has any 20th century classical music reached a mass audience? I am kind of judging the classical music canon by the programme of Dublin's national concert hall (which does have a programme of Prokofiev symphonies on at the moment, oh dear, these goes my argument), and they almost never have anything other than pre-20th century music performed.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 11:01 (twenty-two years ago)

The bit of "the rites of spring" I know is on an old stereo demonstration album, the one that starts "This is a journey into sound" as per Paid in Full and loads of stuff around that time "Stereophonic sound for d.d.d.dance music"...

It scared me as a six year old, then intrigued me...

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 11:05 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.glam-rock.de/bazoo.gif

― mzui, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm going to be controversial and say - as long as the internet prevails, nobody.

― MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno -- cf Onion 'Rock History Written By Losers' story, also continuing critical prominence for Television, Beefheart, VU, Jean-Luc Godard, William Burroughs...

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

.. who are not losers ...

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Geir, what the flippity flip are you talking about re: James Brown!?!?!?!? "I Feel Good" is in every 2-bit pub DJs "Floor Fillers" record bag next to Abba's "Dancing Queen"!!!!! It's vitrtually on the soundtrack of every 12th TV advert in the UK!!!! (It's even more ubiquitous than Louie Armstrong's "Wonderful World"!!!!!!!) And most people in the UK would be able to recognise at two other JB songs (eg "Sex Machine" , "Man's Man's Man's World", "Pappa's Got a Brand New Bag", "Get on the Good Foot"), not to mention Brown's own performance of them!!!!! I mean you even had Led Zeppelin doing a "homage" to the man!!!! ("Where's that confounded bridge!??!!??") It's like with Barry White, he's had a few hits back in the olden days, and then been in the background for ever more!!!! You can just plonk on a random record of his and people will go "Yay!!! James Brown!!!! Aaaoow!!! Uh!!! [Do crappy dance moves] etc"!!!!!!!

― Old Fart!!! (oldfart_sd), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

James Brown's songs are too dependent on his recordings. They don't work without the recordings. Once in the future, recordings that are non-interactive, even non-surround, will sound hopelessly old-fashioned, and unless they have good tunes (which is a timeless value) they will not be appreciated.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't agree with that, Geir, for three reasons:

JB's most famous recordings (late 60s era) are already old-fashioned sounding, yet people still love em!!!!
In the case of stuff like "Pappa's Got a Brand New Bag", "I Feel Good", "Man's Man's Man's World" and others, I'd argue that it's the quality of the tunes that have ensured their longevity, in comparision to the obviously more straight-ahead dancey stuff he did at the same time...
Outside of his recordings, the style of his performance and of his arrangements has been a major influence on a lot of popular music since!!!! (Obvious example: The Jacksons) So even if people were to forget the tunes, they'd still know who he was!!!! I mean, how many Robert Johnson tunes can you whistle?!??!?!

― Old Fart!!! (oldfart_sd), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Geir, your mythical future inhabited by Aryan tune-whistlers will never come to pass.

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Vanilla Ice will live forever.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Only as long as Suge Knight doesn't toss him off a balcony.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

DV some pieces of 20th century classical music that are always sold out in concert and are big sellers on CD:

MAHLER
symphony no.2
symphony no.5
symphony no.6
symphony no.8
symphony no.9
Das lied von der erde
kindertotenlieder

PROKOFIEV
symphony no.1 "classical"
Romeo and Juliet

STRAVINSKY
The Rite of spring
The Firebird
Petrushka
symphony in three movements
symphony in c

SIBELIUS
symphony no.2
symphony no.5
symphony no.7
Finlandia
Violin concerto
Swan of Tuonela

BARTOK
concerto for orchestra
piano concertos 1-3
violin concertos 1-2

ELGAR
cello concerto
symphony no.1
symphony no.2
violin concerto
the dream of Gerontius
introduction and allegro for strings

SHOSTAKOVICH
symphony no.4
symphony no.5
symphony no.8
symphony no.10
piano concertos 1-2
Lady Macbeth of the Mtensk district

VAUGHAN-WILLIAMS
A sea symphony
A London symphony
symphony no.5
The lark ascending
serenade to music
fantasia on a theme of Thomas Tallis

R.STRAUSS
Der Rosenkavalier
Four last songs
Metamorphosen

TIPPETT
A child of our time

BRITTEN
War Requiem
Peter Grimes

DEBUSSY
images

RACHMANINOV
piano concertos 1-3
rhapsody on a theme of Paganini
symphony no.2

HOLST
The planets

BERG
violin concerto

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

That's not to mention Phillip Glass, Steve Reich and John Adams who do get quite *huge* audiences.

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

nyeh... a lot of those people are early 20th century (twisting my argument, I know).

Does Steve Reich really get huge audiences?

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Only when he opens for Eminem.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

(Prokofiev d.1953
Stravinsky d.1971
R.Strauss d.1949
Tippet d.1998
Shostakovich d.1975
Britten d.1976
Bartok d.1945
Rachmaninov d.1943
Vaughan Williams d.1958
Sibelius d.1957)

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

HISTORY WILL FORGET THEM:

travis
coldplay
train
other soundalike britpop bands whose names I cannot recall at the moment because they all sound exactly the fuck alike and suck donkey testicles and don't have any memorable earworm-candidate melodies like "I Feel Good" or the bridge in "Hot Pants" etc etc.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

also:

50 Cent

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Good bands that history is already in the process of erasing....

- Belfegore
- Cop Shoot Cop
- Gun Club
- The Wedding Present
- Mansun

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

In the future, History will forget more bands/artists than it has in the past.

― Huck Everlasting (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Millions now recording will never be remembered.

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Good bands that history is already in the process of erasing....

http://www.smartalecmusic.com/fishbone_logo.gif

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

hell, even the Beatles are being rapidly forgotten

― Huck Everlasting (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Sad but true, about Fishbone.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

my youngest brother, not yet 21, loves Fishbone and just last night, at a concert, a friend brought them up as the gold standard of live shows. So, maybe Fishbone's repute has just shifted to the Western Plains.

― Huck Everlasting (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

which is basically the same as History forgetting them.

― Huck Everlasting (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

The stuff that didn't sell very well.

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, how many Robert Johnson tunes can you whistle?!??!?!

Most. But on the other hand, how many Robert Johnson tunes is the man on the street familiar with?

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 22:24 (twenty-two years ago)

In the case of The Beatles, "Tomorrow Never Knows", "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "I Am The Walrus" will be forgotten in 100 years. "Yesterday" and "Hey Jude" and "Michelle" will not.

Innovation means nothing in the long term.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)

DROPDEAD

― dean! (deangulberry), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Travis may survive because of "Sing", although such an obvious an instant melodic classic as Oasis' "Wonderwall" it is not.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 22:27 (twenty-two years ago)

In my ideal future, everything except for Flock of Seaguls.

― David Allen (David Allen), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

"strawberry fields" and "i am the walrus" forgotten? geir, what is norwegian for "crack cocaine"? and have you been smoking it?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

The Genres of:

Backpacker Hip Hop
Emo
Any Drum and Bass post 1997.

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Shit, probably alot of my favorite bands from the 90s will be forgotten....Afghan Whigs, Archers of Loaf, Arcwelder, Lifter Puller, Superchunk, shitloads of indie really....

History isn't kind to rap either: Ultramagnetic MCs, Special Ed, Jungle Bros., MC Breed, Eightball and MJG, Big Daddy Kane, 3rd Bass, King Tee, King Sun, could go on and on...

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Afghan Whigs, Archers of Loaf, Arcwelder, Lifter Puller, Superchunk, shitloads of indie really....

who?

:-)

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

worst thread ever

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

worst geir posts ever

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 23:29 (twenty-two years ago)

all britpop

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Innovation means nothing in the long term.

-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), January 27th, 2004.

Tell that to all of civilization!

― David Allen (David Allen), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

civilization means nothing to geir. come the apocalypse only he and cockroaches will survive.

― pete s, Tuesday, 27 January 2004 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

The only performer of the modern era who will be remembered by history is Skee-Lo. That is all.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 00:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I know this is a truism but what will be remembered at various future times is what is relevant and current for what will then be present. The present constantly reinvents the past. If singalong three minute anthems are the dominant form then that is what will be remembered from the past but if other forms are more popular then people will search for what appear to be antecedents from the past and these will become a new canon.

― Amarga (Amarga), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 08:45 (twenty-two years ago)

And if the next 100 years is all bass-heavy, rhythm-intensive, robo-drone dance music...Geir might be the happiest man alive in 2104.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

By "happiest", I meant "saddest"

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

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