Fight

I say this largely because nu metal seems to be running into the same production realm that hair-metal did, 80s-wise -- that is, the rock on the radio during either period was studio-intensive, heavily- sculpted, non-naturalistic. (Linkin Park is the new Def Leppard, really.) So I'm convinced, as I've previously claimed w/r/t the Strokes (Strokes again!) that indie and the underground are going to see a serious turn back toward naturalism, toward "mistakes" or at least rough edges, toward minimalism and records that just sound like Four People Playing in a Room.

And I think electronics -- glitch in particular -- can do this, too. The next step in glitch, really, might be to shift from the meticulous arrangements of sounding glitchy and actually record more in real-time; I'm picturing guys with chains of sequencers and effects, pointing microphones at the amps on the ends, and going crazy.

I sort of thought there was an element of this with the embrace of Belle and Sebastian amidst what was supposed to be America's Year of Electronica. (And they certainly were shambolic and celebrated for it.)

This connection between glitch and the old psuedoPostcard songcraft + amatuerism aesthetic seems appropriate.

but how "natural" did a band like the smiths sound to kids in the co'n fields of west virgina or iowa? (if they heard them all at all?) certainly the lineages the pinefox thinks the smiths wedded (jangle pop & brit camp)...well, *one* might have sounded natural to kids the amurrican heartland. but it'd still prolly be shrugged off as "faggot limey bullshit." wouldn't natural = like...the nuge? (okay, damn yankees?) or even mellencamp at his glossiest?

This is basically the process behind most noise, and all sorts of art music going back ages. I don't know what "glitch" is, though...is it art music made by skinny white guys in their 20s?

ditto ...Four Tet and Manual - two superb kindred albums that combine organic live instrumentation with digital electronics.

This connection between glitch and the old psuedoPostcard songcraft + amatuerism aesthetic seems appropriate.

Scott -- completely right about Belle and Sebastian, and I think it's the same impulse with the Strokes, to an extent. Sort of a "Jesus, I spent the last four years listening to Moogs and breakbeats, can I please hear plain-old bands again?" Which is a reactionary tendency, yes, but was punk, to an extent.

I quoted your life above because that's basically what I've been trying to figure out lately, musically speaking. The only model I can come up with for what I'm trying to record -- i.e., glitchy beats, acoustic pop songs -- is the Cocteau Twins ... listening to Treasure has helped me clarify what I'm trying to accomplish a little bit. But it's increasingly apparent to me that it's a bit of a challenge to pull off without just sounding like you're aiming for weird-juxtaposition points.

Show me something new that's being done with live band music not done elsewhere, some gap it fills that it hasn't always filled, and I'll get on board this crusade. What are the rock albums from this year that do things that rock albums from last year don't?

I meant circa '96-97: early live shows, the happy accidents that led to the formation of the band, early radio sessions -- and I meant it as a compliment. They were amatuers and all the better for it. (If anything, a song like the title track to IYFS would benefit from more arrangement.) I don't think it's any coincidence that Struan withered in the public's gaze or they've suffered after making an effort to work and write as a full unit, but that's a different thread and been done before.

- No! What are you on about? Pop music is about melody, silly!

without actively contradicting him. Phew.

Scott - yeah "crusade" is the wrong word. I think why I take issue with Nitsuh's idea repeatedly is not that it's a bad idea or a poor reading of the current situation - in fact I'm really interested in it - but just that I'd like to be convinced of it. It just seems to me to be par for the course rather than something new for relatively stripped down rock bands to be championed by the press (a press, I might add, who have been increasingly incorrect in their predictions). You're right, it's no coincidence, because it's part of an ongoing discourse that takes in neo-glam, new wave of new wave, britpop, lo-fi, instrumental post rock, B&S-style indie, slowcore, emo (and as such is no more unexpected than Mixmag hyping Daft Punk). One interesting aspect of the whole Strokes bonanza is that in retrospect it was so obvious and inevitable: the media have been waiting for such a pop-friendly Velvets-inspired group for ages (since the late eighties?) and would have made a fuss about them at any time during the nineties, presumed higher journalistic standards notwithstanding.

In terms of future movement, well, yes, a tidal move towards those values Nitsuh mentions is inevitable, but by the time it emerges I think it's unlikely that The Strokes or Life Without Buildings or Starsailor will have anything beyond a tangential connection to it. I feel a lot more comfortable since Nitsuh re-emphasised (and maybe i just missed it before) that the leaders of such a movement would have to be offering *something* new.

1. Trivially - he has not explained terms. 'ProTool' = ?

2. He seems to be talking about a choice between perfection and deliberate mistakes. This is a non-choice, a red herring. It is very difficult - no, impossible - for me to play anything perfectly (so that's out); and so I am hardly going to worry about making deliberate mistakes (so that's out). What happened to playing as well as you can (which != perfection)?

3. He ignores the most important aspect of pop music, namely: Songwriting. Can a song be perfect, or imperfect? Maybe we use this language sometimes - 'My Funny Valentine is the perfect love song', or whatever. But that's loose talk - I think that really we don't think of songs in that way. We try to write good songs, or better songs, or the best songs we can manage. So again his dichotomy does not arise.

Ewing's thinking seems to revolve around an idea that C21 pop = computer noises. Probably with someone singing horrible 'soul music' inflections over the top.

I think this is like saying that C21 politics = G.W. Bush. Yes, he's dominant and can do what he likes and the media will follow what he says and does. That doesn't mean we have to accept him, or like him, or that we shouldn't hope for or believe in alternatives.

Beginnings of a theory - Glitch is to IDM what acid house was to house: at once the establishment of a sub-genre around a machine "mistake" (only this time on a digital rather than analogue level) and a sound that can be positively identified and automatically associated with the genre from which it springs. As with the 303 sound, I imagine the glitch will become increasingly normalised, both musically and conceptually, potentially becoming merely another component in a lot of pop and mainstream dance.