Brian Wilson vs Arthur Lee vs Paul McCartney Vs Lou Reed: Who is the ultimate 60's genius?

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if they were all to be invited to play in a massive show but some insane genius accidentally hypnotised them all and made them drive robots that had fighting brilliance in corellation with their songwriting genius. you can also introduce other contenders like Dave Clark of the Dave Clark 5 fame, although he'd get 7 shades kicked out of him. go!

― Flotsam of the Fishfolk (Flotsam of the Fishfolk), Monday, 23 February 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

ROKY ERICKSON!!!!!

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Monday, 23 February 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

who?

― Flotsam of the Fishfolk (Flotsam of the Fishfolk), Monday, 23 February 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Well McCartney could only be a genius when provoked by Lennon (and vice versa). If Lennon is his co-pilot, then definitely him. Reed and Lee wrote good songs but a good amount of crap as well. Same goes for Wilson, but his good/bad ratio is a lot better (imho). Reed, Lee and Wilson get there ass kicked by Ray Davis though. Who will be losing his fight with Pete Townsend (but: close call)

― Roger in Mokum (Roger T), Monday, 23 February 2004 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

And they'd all run when they saw Bob Dylan enter.

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 23 February 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

...and if James Brown was with him, they'd run and cry.

― Not That Chuck, Monday, 23 February 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm not sure if Flotsam is a pseudonym for Callum or Aja?

― JaXoN (JasonD), Monday, 23 February 2004 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Perry Como, you know it's true, you fucking rockists!

― My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Monday, 23 February 2004 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

The correct answer is Iggy Pop.

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Smoky Robinson should be included in this discussion.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd have to go with Dylan, too. Reed had Cale for the most part and just seemed like too much a flake to be considered a genius, Wilson was just an idiot-savante who tended to lean more towards the idiot side of the equation, McCartney had Lennon and George Martin to make up for his pedestrian dullness, while Lee, from what I can tell, just put out three above average garage albums and another one that happens to be a "classic" but seems no better than, say, something like Odessey & Oracle.

― maypang (maypang), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Fela Kuti's robot would whoop all their twee assholes!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

leader of 13th Floor Elevators, last heard troubling John Cusack's hi-fi in (shocker) "High Fidelity"- check 'em out

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought that Joe Meek was the only correct answer here.

― Ryan D, Monday, 23 February 2004 20:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Other options: Captain Beefheart or Lee Hazlewood.

― maypang (maypang), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Coltrane

― My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Merle Haggard

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

M@tt He1ges0n

― My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

aw shucks, Huck.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Iggy Pop or Syd Barrett

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I'll just sit here and drink :)

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

wasn't that from the 70s though, Donna?

― My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

George Martin, clearly... Lennon and McCartney merely wrote catchy tunes until he entered the picture.

His brilliance-robot is a colossus which stamps on your petty idols.

― Mediawhore, Monday, 23 February 2004 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Pharoah Sanders.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Col. Sanders

― My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:34 (twenty-two years ago)

James Brown would beat everyone on this thread, with his mere haircut.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Phil Spector >>>>> George Martin.

― maypang (maypang), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

robert mcnamara

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Moe Tucker

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

dammit! And damn Merle, that Okie from Muskogee :)

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Where da women at? Laura Nyro/Aretha/Anne Briggs/Janis Joplin got to be factored in.

Otherwise: Gram Parsons.

― pete s, Monday, 23 February 2004 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

jackie o

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.posterplanet.net/images/kozikmanson.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

LIE

(no that's his new release)

― pete s, Monday, 23 February 2004 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Homer Simpson

― Smells Like Tuna Spirit, Monday, 23 February 2004 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Carl Djerassi?

― subgenius (subgenius), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Burt Bacharach!

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Ray Davies!!!

― Will (will), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, Roger in Mokum beat me to it.

― Will (will), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Jerry Kasenetz and Jeff Katz.

― maypang (maypang), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:09 (twenty-two years ago)

OTM

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Andy Warhol

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/spooks/scott%20walker.jpg

― juju, Monday, 23 February 2004 22:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm surprised no one's said Jim Morrison yet!

― maypang (maypang), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.audiovisualizers.com/library/catagory/reviews/learyhow/b_3_2.jpg

― juju, Monday, 23 February 2004 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

vanda and young

― the surface noise (electricsound), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck jim morrison

― the surface noise (electricsound), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Skip Spence.

― hstencil, Monday, 23 February 2004 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Talking about 60s genius: We're Only in it For the Money by the late, great you know you.

― Roger in Mokum (Roger T), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

shel talmy

― the surface noise (electricsound), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 7 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

duh...
http://www.norcalmovies.com/TheTrialOfBillyJack/jack-poster.jpg

― nonthings (nonthings), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 01:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Iggy Pop? That's '70s, for one thing, even given "1969." And he's no genius...nice singer, though, with some good records?

McCartney? No.
Arthur Lee I love, but he only did one and half great albums.
Brian Wilson I prefer to any of the 4 mentioned in title of thread...or to almost anyone, but he crapped out by '67, basically.

James Brown is the man, but "pop" he sometimes isn't. Captain Beefheart too.

Jobim is right up there, and actually when I think about it he's easily the equal of any of the great American pop icons, as is João Gilberto. So just for the hell of it I'd say Jobim. Lou Reed is great but so goddam overrated, really, and his recent records so bad...unless you need a concept album about Poe. Plus, I just like to blame him for shit like the Violent Femmes, whose band name I cannot say without snickering and laughing.

Also, above, read a dismissive (I think) comment about one of the very greatest records ever, the Zombies' 1968 "Odessey and Oracle." Tsk, tsk, you young people. As much as I love "Forever Changes" and "Notorious Byrd Brothers" and so forth, I'd go with "Odessey" over any of 'em on a desert island, such a work of genius. The more I listen to the Zombies the more I realize that of all the classic '60s beat groups their ouvre, shall we say, is perhaps the most consistent; spent hours listening to basically everything they did after seeing Argent and Blunstone play live recently, and it's basically all great, even the soul/r&b covers are right up there with the Stones' or anyone's.

Jobim.

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 01:57 (twenty-two years ago)

double duh...
http://franklarosa.com/ThumbnailServlet?image=/vinyl/BigImg/shatner.jpg&width=350&smooth

― nonthings (nonthings), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 02:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I'm the one that mentioned Odessey and I intended it to be a compliment when I more or less said that it was a better album than Forever Changes. Though I'm not sure it takes first prize of the decade or anything, it is one of my favourite albums.

― maypang (maypang), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 02:08 (twenty-two years ago)

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/04/30/neal.pollack/story.pollack.jpg

― ccccccc, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 02:13 (twenty-two years ago)

http://ukediner.ukulele.org/imagine/godblesstiny.gif

― captain gay, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 02:20 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.burnettgallery.com/Jimi%20crop%20copy.jpg

― maypang (maypang), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 02:35 (twenty-two years ago)

i am pummelling myself

― pete s, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 02:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the Brill songwriting teams of Leiber & Stoller / Goffin & King / Mann & Weill / Bacharach (mentioned above) & David deserve nominations here as well...

― jim wentworth (wench), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 03:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Inglebert Humperdink. case closed.

― Jaromil (Jaromil), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 03:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I meam Engelbert...right???

― Jaromil (Jaromil), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I downloaded that whole smile live deal, and was listening to it as it completed. And then after it was done, the file disappeared from my hard drive completely. Therefore, Wilson = genius.

― dleone (dleone), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:09 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.trincoll.edu/zines/othervoi/gallery/mcluhan.gif

― ccccccc, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:13 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de/andersen/fullerene/fuller.jpg

― ccccccc, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:21 (twenty-two years ago)

http://rehue.csociales.uchile.cl/rehuehome/facultad/publicaciones/Talon/talon4/mcluhan.gif

― ccccccc, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:26 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.zeitgeistfilms.com/publicity/derrida/downloads/derrida.3.jpg

― ccccccc, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:28 (twenty-two years ago)

http://wwoolf.com/images/wwoolf-elvis-nixon.jpg

― captain gay, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Christ, I never noticed that dog before. Creepy.

― maypang (maypang), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:35 (twenty-two years ago)

plus, reading is fun!

― captain gay, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Am I mistaken or did somebody post a picture of Buckminster Fuller? Because holy shit, rock.

― David Allen (David Allen), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

damn your logic!!
http://www.etsu.edu/cas/history/resources/Private/Faculty/Fac_From1877ChapterDoc/ChapterImages/Ch26DrBenjaminSpock.jpg

― ccccccc, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:43 (twenty-two years ago)

http://home.earthlink.net/~hobhead/jonesgun.jpg

― captain gay, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:46 (twenty-two years ago)

whoa

― ccccccc, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:48 (twenty-two years ago)

oh the nightmare of history we are forever trapped in.

<60s avant garde reference> the 60s are like one of those prisons, the kind of which Ligeti was describing when hearing one of boulez's serial works

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 09:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Bob Gaudio

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

john phillips (with or without that second 'l')

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Fidel Castro

regards,

REB

― Rik E Boy (Rik E Boy), Wednesday, 25 February 2004 02:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Holland
Dozier
Holland

Pop perfection!!!

― Vincent Vern, Friday, 27 February 2004 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

In terms of 'genius' as a some kind of seismic shift in art, and maybe in society as well, in terms of influence, in terms of any real defintion of 'genius': McCartney surely.

In terms of 'genius' meaning that you really, really, really like someone's music and that it will provoke a little debate perhaps: Cat Stevens until 1970.

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Friday, 27 February 2004 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Macca

― the bellefox, Friday, 27 February 2004 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Lawrence Welk

― jack cole (jackcole), Friday, 27 February 2004 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Arthur Lee

― Chris V (Chris V), Friday, 27 February 2004 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Macca and the Retard.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Friday, 27 February 2004 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.kapowgifts.com/acatalog/sean_connery_bond_coaster.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 27 February 2004 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Ray Davies would be my answer.

― Jim Reckling (Jim Reckling), Saturday, 28 February 2004 04:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's Say A Tag Team Match

Lou Reed & John Cale
VS.
Paul McCartney & John Lennon

― Dude (The Yellow Dart), Saturday, 28 February 2004 05:42 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, maypang...gotcha. I wasn't sure if your comment about "O and O" was a compliment... I guess I do prefer "Odessey" to "Forever Changes" right now. I took a crash course in the Zombies after seeing Blunstone/Argent recently, and they really were great. Basically not a bad song anywhere to be found in their work '64-'67, incredibly consistent stuff.

I'd have to put Roger McGuinn up there too..."Notorious" is sure a great '60s record, don't get more '60s than that. I've always preferred the Byrds to the Beatles. But still and all, I think Jobim is the best songwriter of the era, better than Lennon/Mc, Bacharach, or any of 'em. The whole pop thing is the sticking point, because outside the realm of pop as she is spoke, I think James Brown is the most important musician/conceptualist of the era, period--the one who's given me the most to work with anyway...

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Saturday, 28 February 2004 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

where is the love for arthur lee's vindicator album? i've been listening to it constantly lately.

― a collectivist romantic fling! (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 27 May 2005 07:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I still think Donna had the right idea as far as this thread goes. Also I don't think anyone's mentioned Donovan yet, but I'll let it slide this time.

― The Silent Disco of Glastonbury (Bimble...), Friday, 27 May 2005 07:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Phil Spector gets my vote for his work in songwriting + production. Plus one of the best Christmas records of all time, something no one else here can lay claim to.

― On the bass, 57 7th, he wrote this (calstars), Friday, 27 May 2005 13:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Don Van Vliet

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 27 May 2005 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I dunno — a Lou Reed Christmas album is pretty tantilizing proposition...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Friday, 27 May 2005 13:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh jeez, fuck yeah it is!

― The Silent Disco of Glastonbury (Bimble...), Friday, 27 May 2005 16:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Brian Wilson, by virtue of his melodic sense and chord progressions, deserves the genius tag just for his work from 64 to 67 alone.

All the others had moments of brilliance, but for entirely different reasons.

Lou was all guitar splatter and the odd monumental song.

Arthur Lee hit it on Forever Changes.

McCartney sang his ass off, wrote lots of great melodies, and played some stellar bass, but somehow never earned the genius tag in my books.

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Friday, 27 May 2005 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

spector wrote "the screw" -- QED.

― a collectivist romantic fling! (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 27 May 2005 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Paul McCartney is the ultimate 20th century genius

Which leaves even a pop genius such as Brian Wilson completely in the shadow.

Lou Reed isn't even a genius.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 27 May 2005 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Lee Scratch Perry anyone? I'd side with Wilson or Dylan overall though.

― Nick H (Nick H), Saturday, 28 May 2005 17:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, I think Phil Spector would be in with a good shout too. Him, Wilson and Dylan would be my top three but don't know the order.

― Nick H (Nick H), Saturday, 28 May 2005 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Pound for pound, none of the names mentioned (Lee, Reed, Wilson, McCartney) did anything as toweringly great as the Kinks "Face to Face" album.

If we're sticking to the pop side of things (meaning no Beefheart, Sun Ra, et al.), then Ray Davies must be given his due. What continues to astonish me about the Kinks 60s catalog is its overall consistency, coupled with the fact that Ray Davies did this almost entirely singlehandedly: no producer-arranger to lean on (Shel Talmy was no George Martin), no songwriting collaborator, no outside lyricists needed. Yeah, so there's a few so-so token Dave Davies compostions scattered throughout (and a few of those are excellent anyway), but that takes nothing away from R. Davies.

Dylan? Maybe, but how many records are you really talking about? His first - what is it? - 39 albums are unbearably self-righteous hoary folk garbage.

― pwaci, Sunday, 29 May 2005 20:12 (twenty-one years ago)

sure, Ray Davies. but such a narrow little garden path, it seems to me. plus big minus points for the way those records sound--they sound fucked up. I always thought "Face to Face" was some sort of genius album, but I wouldn't say it's really as good as Brian Wilson at his best, or Arthur Lee. Anyway, I still think Jobim is as good a songwriter as Wilson, McCartney, Lee, and certainly as good as Lou Reed, for chrissake. I'm sure there are people who could make a case for Jimmy Webb, Bacharach, Dan Penn, Holland-Dozier-Holland, Steve Cropper, Gilberto Gil...the word "genius" is kind of wrong when you're talking about this sort of thing, I think. Ray Davies had a certain thing he did well--how "universal" is it really? Van Vliet--he led a band, just like James Brown did, but whether he really came up with a lot of that stuff is questionable, just like it's questionable when you talk about Brown. So my definition of a genius would be someone who really plans it all out and it's big, I guess, and Ray Davies, as great as he was, kinda seems like local color to me. And by that definition, none of 'em really holds up as a "genius" except maybe Wilson, and even then there's more to one of his two-and-a-half minute songs than in the whole of "Smile." I think the real geniuses of that era are the producers and the session musicians, I mean at this point I could give a shit about "Revolver" or even "Pet Sounds," give me "Dusty in Memphis," which is immaculate and so sharp at the same time. Oh yeah right, she's just an "interpreter" and those guys playing with her are just "local session musicians." What's that word starting with a r and ending with an ism we don't utter around here any more?

― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Sunday, 29 May 2005 20:49 (twenty-one years ago)

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