Solos: Classic or Dud?

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From a letter I sent a friend a couple days ago:

"I am writing because I remember you expressing certain opinions
about solos in music during one conversation years ago. I was thinking about
the subject today . . . I wanted to ask what you think about the following questions, just to bring ideas up for discussion. I don't necessarily have a firm opinion on any of this:

First, are you still opposed to solos as a general rule?

I remember that you expressed your distaste for solos because you thought it
seems like a song is being interrupted and one musician is showing himself or herself off over top of the group. Do you still have this opinion? Do you
think it's a purely aesthetic thing? Or do you think there are also social/
political/ethical issues at play here - e.g. that this type of musical
organization seems to be modeled on a hierarchical (?) type of individualism
where a person can only express himself in opposition to the group and must
make himself more prominent than others.

If so, what types of structures do you think are more appropriate/progressive?

Are you familiar with Ornette Coleman's 'harmolodic' music with Prime Time in
the 70s where he tried to set up a type of 'free funk' where everyone could
sort of solo at the same time and it would still feel coherent and even
danceable? What do you think of this?

If solos are problematic for this reason, do you also think there are problems,
for example, with traditional classical music where performers not only play
parts determined by the will of a composer but are also directed by a conductor at the front of the group?

Where does the audience come into all this? If all the performers should be
incorporated into the music in an egalitarian way, does it also follow that maybe the audience should also be incorporated (as more than observers/consumers)? If so, how do you think this can be achieved? Does physical participation in the form of dance accomplish this? Should the audience be incorporated into the creation of the music itself?

Is there a similar problem with pop music where the singer's voice dominates
the music, where the musicians function primarily as accompaniment for the
singer?

Does it make a difference what the soloist is playing? Is there a difference
in this regard between a one-note-drowned-in-feedback Neil Young solo and a virtuosic, melodic, climax-oriented solo by, say, Pat Metheny or John
McLaughlin (or in a rock context, I dunno, Alex Lifeson or maybe Jimmy Page on "Stairway to Heaven")?

From my thesis journal notes for today:

I started thinking about ideas for a piece for . . . (who had
asked me Friday night to write a piece for him). He seemed interested to do a
‘concerto’-type piece, with solo soprano sax against a string quartet or cello
trio. I was thinking about it today. I don’t know if I’m comfortable with
that idea, maybe because it goes against what I’m used to writing but maybe
also because I don’t know if I’m comfortable with the construction of
individuality that it appears to represent. It seems to suggest a sort of
hierarchy, with one performer asserting himself or herself over the group. As
well, it seems to perhaps be more aesthetically interesting to incorporate the
other musicians into the fabric of the piece. This does not necessarily
require performers to play fully notated and controlled parts (under the
‘authority’ of the composer). As Ornette Coleman’s harmolodic music
demonstrates, it is possible to have all performers improvise as part of a
coherent whole. Ringing was also an effort to approach music in this way.
This all reminds me of a conversation I had with (childhood friend and [band name] guitarist) [his name] about solos in rock music. He said
that he hates solos for just this reason – that they sound like a song is being
interrupted for one performer to display himself or herself. “Why can’t you
work the other instruments into it?” he asked. "

sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Does hip-hop have solos?

@d@ml (nordicskilla), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Yngwie J Malmsteen to thread.

noodle vague (noodle vague), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Maraca solos are the bomb

sexyDancer, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

rock me joe.

Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

What a bullshit "question", its not even a question of Classic/Dud. What are you going to ask next Chorus - C/D ?

David Wesley, Friday, 23 April 2004 09:04 (twenty-two years ago)

that this type of musical
organization seems to be modeled on a hierarchical (?) type of individualism
where a person can only express himself in opposition to the group and must
make himself more prominent than others.

The notion that solos set one in opposition to the group doesn't always hold up. Lots of times it seems like the soloist is being propelled, supported, egged on by the group. For a very bare example (which may be problematic for other reasons, but...), think Coltrane's Interstellar Space. Even in stadium metal, where the division between backing section and solo is much clearer and more rigid, the support structure is there. In this case, it's more like a group of friends all rallying hard for you to get laid -- letting you have the spotlight, but doing their jobs steadfastly and well to make sure you get to make magic tonight. Know what I mean?

Clarke B. (Clarke B.), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll address more of your points when I have time, too.

Clarke B. (Clarke B.), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Depends. Not a great solo fan in general myself, but I have to admit that Van Halen wouldn't have been as good hadn't it been for a bunch of really great guitar solos.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

This is completely dependent upon how you define "solo", isn't it? What is the singer in relationship to the rest of the band?

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 April 2004 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Thank you for reading and answering the question, Clarke. That is fleshing it out a bit more.

Lots of times it seems like the soloist is being propelled, supported, egged on by the group. For a very bare example (which may be problematic for other reasons, but...), think Coltrane's Interstellar Space. Even in stadium metal, where the division between backing section and solo is much clearer and more rigid, the support structure is there. In this case, it's more like a group of friends all rallying hard for you to get laid -- letting you have the spotlight, but doing their jobs steadfastly and well to make sure you get to make magic tonight. Know what I mean?

Does this still imply a type of hierarchy, if not an opposition? Is this a problem?

Interstellar Space is just a duo between Coltrane and Ali, right? I don't even know that one of them is more prominent on that.

Dan, that was one of the questions I was interested in. I asked it in the original post.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 23 April 2004 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

(haha poor skim-reading strikes again! Sorry, I'll reread and think a bit more...)

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Quick response: I think it is very difficult for a composer to write a piece of music that has a coherent melody that is not carried by a primary instrument, whether it's a voice or the string section or whatever. (Said melody might get passed around between several instruments, but if the theme is chopped up and distributed among instruments it ceased to be perceived as a coherent melody line.)

Pieces with improv solos or solo breaks are somewhat different, although one could argue that their function is as much an opportunity to let "the backing musicians" have a modicum of rest as it is to allow the soloing instrument an opportunity to show off.

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

But there are other ways of expressing a melody - through homophony (where everyone is playing the melody - e.g. Vivier's "Lonely Child"); through heterophony (where everyone is simultaneously improvising on the same melody, e.g. in many Southeast Asian musics). But is it also possible that the primacy of the idea of a "coherent melody" might be problematic?

sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

But is it also possible that the primacy of the idea of a "coherent melody" might be problematic?

I think that's the crux of it and why I chose the words "coherent melody".

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Does this still imply a type of hierarchy, if not an opposition? Is this a problem?

Whereas I guess what you're saying is that sometimes it's important and/or natural for one person to be the 'hero' and it's cool for everyone else to be helping him out. And it's good that music can sometimes reflect this. So maybe what's more important is just that there's all these different narratives available. And maybe the problem, if there is one, is that perhaps one type of narrative is still dominant.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 24 April 2004 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

"one type of narrative" = "coherent melody with accompaniment"?

But even this is probably changing, given the advances in pop music. Which starts to make adaml's question seem very relevant. . .

sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 24 April 2004 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

In the words of my own personal guitar god Bruce Anderson, of MX-80 Sound "fame": "...the fact that we played guitar solos was actually our death in San Francisco...[during a solo] some drunk punkette threw a coat over my guitar. We were pretty well reviled...After working my nuts off on the guitar, I wasn't going to adhere to some little fascist art statement like 'solos are no good.' Boring solos are no good, but interesting solos are good, and I felt that I had worked long and hard enough and had enough imagination to earn the right to play solos."

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Sunday, 25 April 2004 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

seventeen years pass...

My favorite keyboard parts!.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 23 June 2021 13:47 (four years ago)

Some great choices, and, as you suggest, it is not always clear what the difference is between the song and the keyboard part.
"Over You" is my least-favourite Roxy single, although the echoey coda is the best part. I might choose the coda of "For Your Pleasure" or the main piano line of "She Sells" as my Roxy picks.

I wonder what conclusions sund4r has come to about his original question 17 years ago. To me, the paradox of an instrumental solo is that it can also provide a moment for other instruments to shine.

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 23 June 2021 15:37 (four years ago)


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