TS: The Byrds-era Compositions of Roger McGuinn, David Crosby, Gene Clark or Chris Hillman

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Roger: Purveyor of the classic Byrds sound, "5D", "Mr. Spaceman", "Get To You"
David: The most garishly awful, but also the most subtly beautiful -- "Everybody's Been Burned", "Lady Friend", "Triad", etc
Gene: The most obv. skilled, consistent and heartbreaking, "Eight Miles", "Here Without You", and a gazillion others
Chris: Late-blooming genius of "Have You Seen Her Face?", "The Girl With No Name" -- poss. the most 60s pop of them all.

Let's just leave Gram or Skip out of this.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

And while my heart is with Gene, it's not so easy to decide.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Roger was the Byrds. Roger.

― de, Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

"Lady Friend" trounces all of them by being the best single of the 60s hands down.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

a tough tough choice, but i think hillman, he came to the fore during my favourite period. crosby second i think maybe

― gareth (gareth), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

David did great with Lady Friend and Why, which he did with Roger I think, but that's not enough. Roger took a long time to get his stride, he defines the sound yes, but never wrote anything nearly as good Gene. Some of Gene's songs for the Byrds:

I'll Feel A Whole Lot Better, I Knew I'd Want To, She Has a Way, Here Without You, The Reason Why, For Me Again, Set You Free This Time, The World Turns All Around Her, the amazingly beautiful If You're Gone, The Day Walk, She Don't Care About Time...

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 22 May 2004 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Fresh off a listen to _American Dreamer_ today (see the Gene thread), I'll go with Gene, but all the votes for the others will be counted.

How about a TS for 'best fourth songwriter in a band' between Chris and Ringo Starr? (I'm talking the pre-Parsons lineup, as David and Gene were pretty much out of the picture by the time Gram arrived).

― Jeff Wright (JeffW1858), Sunday, 23 May 2004 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i actually don't think any of them were that great as songwriters. david probably had the best "songs"--but mcguinn had the best records.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 23 May 2004 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

what dan said. gene rules.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Sunday, 23 May 2004 05:59 (twenty-two years ago)

if gene clark wasn't a great songwriter...I don't know who is.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 23 May 2004 06:47 (twenty-two years ago)

his songs are ok. they sometimes have awkward verse/chorus (or other melodic) shifts. sometimes the byrds' arrangements get around that. sometimes not.

sometimes too wordy--the melodies often seem hampered by the need to stuff a million words into each line. too obviously emulating dylan.

who wrote "if you're gone"

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 23 May 2004 07:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"Feel A Whole Lot Better" makes a good claim for being almost as good as "Lady Friend", but "Lady Friend" is still the best song ever released in all the 60s so yahboo Batman, Crosby wins, even if he is wearign some kidn fo wizard's smock on the cover of Fifth Dimension.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Sunday, 23 May 2004 08:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Those awkward melodic shifts, I think, are what made him unique.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 23 May 2004 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Gene Clark was not only the best songwriter in the Byrds but also the best singer in the Byrds. I mean, if you're talking abt a songwriter 'defining' a group, then for the Byrds that wld be Dylan, not Gene, and certainly not Roger (who admittedly was the only Byrd who actually played on 'Mr Tambourine Man', the song they're still most associated with - so you cld even say that Tom Wilson defined the Byrds, or Jim Dickinson, or whoevah.) Apart from anything else, 'Eight Miles High' wouldn't have existed w/out Gene (or Brian Jones - or 'India' by John Coltrane!) and if that's not the number one defining (ie brilliant) Byrds rec of all-time, I dunno what is. I sometimes think that Gene wrote even better songs when he was AWAY from the Byrds (where the songs are always partly serving/feeding the whole group sound/mind/image - eg 'Lady Friend' is a good song, but a better RECORD) - I almost prefer 'Why Not Your Baby' by Dillard and Clark to any Byrds rec, because it isn't stamped all over w/ that chiming chiming Rickenbacker sound, so ruined by a million indie no-marks...

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Sunday, 23 May 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Clark wrote If You're Gone, but apparently it was Mguinn's idea to add that droning vocal harmony that adds so much melancholy to the song. Clark got rid of the wordiness after a while. It definatly appears on maybe half of his byrds songs, but I think he just got better as he left the byrds. Ditto andrew on Why Not Your Baby, as well as Line Down the Middle and so many other songs from that period. The Dillard and Clark recs, esp the first, are completely amazing.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 23 May 2004 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno about the wordiness -- "Spanish Guitar" and "The Virgin" from White Light are nothing if not extreme in that sense. They're also among my favorite Clark songs of all time -- words and all.

The question of his voice is another matter altogether. It was so unique and weighty in its way that the song--its melodic countour, etc.--and how his voice was set in the arrangement made a big difference. And so, where I prefer the Byrds versions of "She's the Kind of Girl" and "One In a Million" to the solo Gene renditions, I'm not sure we'd know exactly what kind of classic "So You Say You Lost Your Baby" was w/o that solo rendition they tagged onto the end of Echoes.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 23 May 2004 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never heard that version...my CD of Echoes doesn't have any extra tracks.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 23 May 2004 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Really? It's the cheap Sony disc, I believe, that retails for less than $10. I actually didn't realize there were any other editions of it, since it's just a comp of the Godsin Bros. record and contemporaneous tracks anyway...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 23 May 2004 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

With the Godsin Bros. originally came out on cd on Edsel/Demon, and I have to check but I think it was titled Echoes...but without the extra tracks. This was in the 90s at some point, I don't think the Sony collection came out till later.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 23 May 2004 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Not sure when the Edsel/Demon one came out, but the label on the Sony says 1991.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 23 May 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe the Sony one went out of print then the Edsel/Demon came out? Sony/CBS had the United States of America and Skip Spence CDs in print in the early 90s, only to have them go out of print and have other labels(edsel and sundazed respectively) put them back in print.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 23 May 2004 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Roger was the Byrds. Roger.

I preferred Jim.

But basically I love virtually everything this band ever did up until Gram Parsons joined. (And I like the Burritos too, so it's not like I'm anti-Gram.)

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Sunday, 23 May 2004 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"Clark wrote If You're Gone, but apparently it was Mguinn's idea to add that droning vocal harmony that adds so much melancholy to the song. "

See, that's why I think the acme of the Byrds can't be pinned on one person. None of them were---at the time at least, I can't speak for Gene Clark's post-Byrds stuff--great songwriters, but the contributions of the different members often added up to great records.

Obv. Gram Parsons was the best songwriter the Byrds ever had, but I don't know if that counts.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 23 May 2004 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

not obv at all..Gene Clark's solo material effects me much more deeply then anything Gram wrote solo or otherwise. But that's just personal preference. Still, I wouldn't write him off if you haven't spent some quality time with his solo records...

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 23 May 2004 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

_With the Gosdin Brothers_ was out in the US on CBS Special Products (a la the USA and Spence recs Dan mentioned above) before the _Echoes_ comp was released. I'm pretty sure the _Gosdin Brothers_ CD is the mono mix of the album (the CBS one is, at least -- never heard the Edsel version) while _Echoes_ is the stereo mix. I prefer the sound on the original CBS CD, but the bonus tracks on _Echoes_ make it worth buying also.

There's supposedly some ca.-'72 remix of _Gosdin Brothers_ that was retitled _Early L.A. Sessions_ or something like that, but I've never heard it.

Dan OTM on that first Dillard and Clark album.

I don't recall any GC conversations at the Oberlin Co-Op (though I think I did buy _Roadmaster_ there) but certainly a lot of Co-Op alumni on this thread who are fans. . .

― Jeff Wright (JeffW1858), Monday, 24 May 2004 00:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, yeah, but what about Bob Dylan, Goffin/King...?

Clark was obviously the best songwriter. I find Crosby compositions like "Everybody's Been Burned," "Lady Friend," "Renaissance Fair," etc., somehow the most evocative Byrds compositions, though. "Tribal Gathering," "Psychodrama City" and "Dolphin's Smile" too...the thing is, the best Byrds record is "Notorious," and Clark was gone by then (and Crosby almost gone). It's the sound, not so much the songwriting (great as it is), on that one...and I think Gram Parsons was, overall, easily the equal of Gene Clark as songwriter--he might really have been better. I like the way Gram Parsons songs like "Big Mouth Blues" don't quite come out and say whatever it is they mean.

Also, Crosby showed a lapse of taste when he dismissed "Don't Make Waves," which I regard as one of the half-dozen definitive Byrds records--it IS a "masterpiece" at 1:36, no need to double it. Easterners go west to California and find out it ain't a dreamscape? How much more to the point could a Byrds song be?

I love the Byrds more than any other '60s group, and if I had to pick just one, it'd have to be "Everybody's Been Burned." And that's Crosby.

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Monday, 24 May 2004 00:53 (twenty-two years ago)

wow, Everybody's Been Burned may be my LEAST favorite song! That and Mind Gardens are regular fast-forwarders for me. There's just something I do not like about Crosby's songs and leads.

Jeff Wright...I never would've put two and two together. But the Oberlin Co-Op's influence stretches far and wide. A woman named Yoko who runs a japanese record label called Contact Records http://www.contact-records.com/concept-en.html recently wrote an article called "A Trip to Oberlin" to discuss it's impact on the music scene. And now Karen O's on the cover of Spin Magazine.

And just today I gave fellow Co-op employee Oliver Sharp a copy of the forthcoming Acute Records Doctor Mix and the Remix CD and remarked "I'll have to get one of these to Dave Todarello".

sorry for the aside...go on discussing the Byrds.

Best thing I've ever heard? While digging through the basement of second coming records a few years ago, I found a copy of a 7" bootleg by the Beefeaters, featuring a version of Lady Friend which I suppose was rare in the pre-CD days. However, it being a bootleg the mix and sound is terrible, all compressed and distorted and totally punk rock. And it totally kills...

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 24 May 2004 02:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Say hi to Oliver for me.

At any rate, I haven't heard the CBS issue Jeff's talking about, but I've never been a huge fan of the sound on the Echoes CD either. That said, it has a couple of tracks produced by Curt Boettcher that I don't think were on the original album, rendering it essential.

Disagree, though, about "Everybody's Been Burned". I mean, I think I said this on another Cros' thread, but that song, with the chiming guitar and the tiny lilt in Crosby's voice -- man, it just simmers...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Monday, 24 May 2004 02:50 (twenty-two years ago)

"don't make waves" is AWFUL

i should hear a lot of the post-byrds work by clark and others. i guess i'm sort of wary, because i've been burned (pun unintended) by that country-rock thing before. lots of "classic" albums i've found to be mediocrities.

i've heard good things about "so rebellious a lover." how is that?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 24 May 2004 04:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I respectfully ask--what's awful about "Don't Make Waves"?

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Monday, 24 May 2004 04:20 (twenty-two years ago)

the song

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 24 May 2004 04:25 (twenty-two years ago)

As opposed to the performance, I guess?

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Monday, 24 May 2004 04:30 (twenty-two years ago)

no that too

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 24 May 2004 04:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Clark's stuff really is as far from typical country-rock as you get:

With the Gosdin Bros/Echoes is a great record that I've always seen as having 3 components, 1 part LA arranged studio baroque folk balladry pop, 1 part Paul Mcartney wannabe(Elevator Operator?) 1 part early country-rock of the highest order, which is one reason I think Clark deserves more credit for helping invent country-rock, this came out the same time as Younger then Yesterday.

The Fantastic Expedition of Dillard and Clark transcends any sort of novelty bluegrass record with unbelievably beautiful and melancholy songwriting and top-notch arranging, just listen to the last 20 seconds of The Radio Song...it sounds like the ghost of Brian Wilson.

White Light is country only in the way say some Bob Dylan is country. It's really just a singer-songwriter album(often considered the best example of what would be the 70s singer/songwriter type thing) It's country, it's folksy, it's rock, it's pop, and it's totally freaking beautiful start to finish.

No Other is the opposite of White Light production-wise, but not content-wise. More baroque production, slick and deep, with bluesier and gutsier material, I suppose. I always find it hard to explain No Other and while I know some people think it's his absolute best, I'd say start with Echoes and White Light.

By then you'll be obsessed and you'll get Roadmaster or any number of compilations to fill in the blanks.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 24 May 2004 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

here's my Rough Guide I did when we did those Rough Guide threads:

rough guide to Gene Clark, 1 hour, 17 minutes

1. Gene Clark-Echoes (Echoes)
2. The Byrds-The Reason Why (Preflyte)
3. The Byrds-The World Turns All Around Her (Turn! Turn! Turn!
4. Dillard and Clark-With Care From Someone (Fantastic Expedition)
5. Gene Clark-One in a Hundred (Roadmaster)
6. Gene Clark-So You Say You Lost Your Baby (Echoes)
7. Gene Clark-With Tomorrow (White Light)
8. Gene Clark-She's the Kind of Girl (Roadmaster)
9. The Byrds-I'll Feel A Whole Lot Better (Mr. Tambourine Man)
10. Gene Clark-Think I'm Gonna Feel Better (Echoes)
11. Dillard and Clark-Out on the Side (Fantastic Expedition)
12. The Byrds-She Don't Care About Time (Turn! Turn! Turn!)
13. Gene Clark-For A Spanish Guitar (White Light)
14. Dillard and Clark-Lyin Down the Middle (Fantastic Expedition CD/single)
15. The Byrds-Here Without You (Preflyte)
16. Gene Clark-No Other (No Other)
17. The Byrds-The Day Walk (Turn! Turn! Turn! CD)
18. The Byrds-I Knew I'd Want To (Mr. Tambourine Man)
19. Gene Clark-Tried So Hard (Echoes)
20. The Byrds-She Has A Way (Mr. Tambourine Man)
21. Gene Clark-Is Yours Is Mine (Echoes)
22. The Byrds-Set You Free This Time (Turn! Turn! Turn!(
23. Dillard and Clark-Why Not Your Baby (Fantastic Expedition)
24. The Byrds-For Me Again (Preflyte)
25. The Byrds-If You're Gone (Turn! Turn! Turn!)
26. Gene Clark-In a Misty Morning (Roadmaster)

this exceptionally melancholy guide was originally a much more satisfying 90 minute tape. This should come with a 3" CD containing the following:

1. The Turtles-You Showed Me
2. Fairport Convention-Tried So Hard
3. This Mortal Coil-Strenght of Strings
4. Husker Du-Eight Miles High

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 24 May 2004 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Geez, this is hard!

Crosby spans an awfully wide range, so that while "Burned", "Lady Friend" and "Why" boost his cause, some of the afore-mentioned lesser songs truly grate. Hillman is something of a George Harrison character in that the songs were largely excellent, but their modest number makes him hard to choose. McGuinn provided a workman-like consistency but few truly unassailable highs come to mind. Looks like this is yet another vote for Gene then, for all the songs already mentioned, especially "She Don't Care About Time" which gives me chest pains - I want to meet this 'girl'!

Okay, so if one has only American Dreamer, does one desperately need more solo Gene?

― Nag! Nag! Nag! (Nag! Nag! Nag!), Monday, 24 May 2004 05:39 (twenty-two years ago)

When people say "Gene" I keep thinking they mean Gene Parsons! "Gunga Din", "Yesterday's Train", good songs, good singer!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 24 May 2004 08:47 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, agreed. whats that solo lp he did in, maybe 73, like? i forgot the name...

― gareth (gareth), Monday, 24 May 2004 09:01 (twenty-two years ago)

"Kindling"?

― Mr Mime (Andrew Thames), Monday, 24 May 2004 09:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Never heard it but it's supposed to be good. I saw him live a few years back and he was excellent.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 24 May 2004 09:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Someone (Sierra?) reissued "The Kindling Album" as "The Kindling Collection" a few years ago, surrounding "TKA" with quality Gene Parsons moments from The Byrds and some from his stint with the Flying Burrito Brothers.

"The Kindling Album" itself is very good indeed (if a bit patchy). The Byrds-period stuff I knew before, but I was surprised how much I liked the Burritos stuff: "Sweet Desert Childhood" in particular is trivvic in a sentimental generic country rock sort of way.

It was on a special! gold! cd! which as far as I could tell added nothing but the chance for the record company to put a sticker on the CD case.

― Tim (Tim), Monday, 24 May 2004 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

(Having said that, I bought "Melodies" by Gene P and wasn't very taken with it at all.)

― Tim (Tim), Monday, 24 May 2004 10:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Can't disagree with NagNagNag and others. I'd go Gene>Hillman>Crosby>McGuinn. Clark is genius - Here Without You and Set You Free This Time are my absolute favourites, but there are so many. Great voice too. Hillman didn;t write much, but the songs on YTY are utterly fantastic (with a bit of help from Clarence White). Crosby shades McGuinn, just, although virtually nothing in the world is as wretched as listening to Mind Gardens all the way through. I'm really not sure if I physically could do this even with a gun held to my temple.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 24 May 2004 11:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, so if one has only American Dreamer, does one desperately need more solo Gene?

As on another thread, I suggest the 2-CD Flying High. Expensive, but as good an overview as you're likely to ever find (though Dan's list is quite good). You could get that and No Other and be close to being set.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Monday, 24 May 2004 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

eight years pass...

There is not enough love for Chris Hillman in this thread (which admittedly existed for three days eight years ago, but still). His name is attached to more songs than anyone else on arguably their two best albums, Younger Than Yesterday and Notorious Byrd Brothers.

― scott pgwp (pgwp), Sunday, 9 December 2012 05:58 (thirteen years ago)

What's Happening!? is another great Crosby song, as are Lady Friend and Everybody's Been Burned. But I have to agree it's Gene Clark that defines the Byrds as a songwriter.

― Dr X O'Skeleton, Sunday, 9 December 2012 16:32 (thirteen years ago)

Gene was the strongest writer during his time with the band, but he was only around for the first two records, followed by ten more without him. Even the first two bear Dylan's stamp more. I love Clark but would t day he defined anything.

― scott pgwp (pgwp), Sunday, 9 December 2012 20:49 (thirteen years ago)

six years pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqOcxrlEaP8

― buzza, Monday, 16 September 2019 04:54 (six years ago)

one year passes...

What else sounds like "Let Me Down Easy", other artists included?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RmhVV9ePTs

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 3 December 2020 06:15 (five years ago)

Gene > Croz > Chris > Roger. McGuinn's songwriting was still excellent mind you, it's just we're dealing with a massive amount of talent in not much space here.

― Lee626, Thursday, 3 December 2020 08:29 (five years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwFNeOam9FI

― buzza, Thursday, 3 December 2020 09:59 (five years ago)

I had the most intense weekend listening to Fifth Dimension and Notorious Byrd Brothers, it was like I'd never heard music before

― swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Friday, 4 December 2020 00:57 (five years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2btFD-t3ptw

― buzza, Saturday, 5 December 2020 11:34 (five years ago)

three years pass...

here's my Rough Guide I did when we did those Rough Guide threads:
rough guide to Gene Clark, 1 hour, 17 minutes
1. Gene Clark-Echoes (Echoes)
2. The Byrds-The Reason Why (Preflyte)
3. The Byrds-The World Turns All Around Her (Turn! Turn! Turn!
4. Dillard and Clark-With Care From Someone (Fantastic Expedition)
5. Gene Clark-One in a Hundred (Roadmaster)
6. Gene Clark-So You Say You Lost Your Baby (Echoes)
7. Gene Clark-With Tomorrow (White Light)
8. Gene Clark-She's the Kind of Girl (Roadmaster)
9. The Byrds-I'll Feel A Whole Lot Better (Mr. Tambourine Man)
10. Gene Clark-Think I'm Gonna Feel Better (Echoes)
11. Dillard and Clark-Out on the Side (Fantastic Expedition)
12. The Byrds-She Don't Care About Time (Turn! Turn! Turn!)
13. Gene Clark-For A Spanish Guitar (White Light)
14. Dillard and Clark-Lyin Down the Middle (Fantastic Expedition CD/single)
15. The Byrds-Here Without You (Preflyte)
16. Gene Clark-No Other (No Other)
17. The Byrds-The Day Walk (Turn! Turn! Turn! CD)
18. The Byrds-I Knew I'd Want To (Mr. Tambourine Man)
19. Gene Clark-Tried So Hard (Echoes)
20. The Byrds-She Has A Way (Mr. Tambourine Man)
21. Gene Clark-Is Yours Is Mine (Echoes)
22. The Byrds-Set You Free This Time (Turn! Turn! Turn!(
23. Dillard and Clark-Why Not Your Baby (Fantastic Expedition)
24. The Byrds-For Me Again (Preflyte)
25. The Byrds-If You're Gone (Turn! Turn! Turn!)
26. Gene Clark-In a Misty Morning (Roadmaster)
this exceptionally melancholy guide was originally a much more satisfying 90 minute tape. This should come with a 3" CD containing the following:
1. The Turtles-You Showed Me
2. Fairport Convention-Tried So Hard
3. This Mortal Coil-Strenght of Strings
4. Husker Du-Eight Miles High
― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, May 24, 2004 1:24 AM (nineteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

It's been a Byrds/Gene kind of week for me.

Not sure if it was ever done, but I put Dan's awesome Rough Guide to Gene Clark here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4I8P4rALKZZCO9ikFVPwbT?si=c78c50ab15784b46

As of now, it doesn't have the Dillard and Clark material because Spotify's trackless is fucked up -- I think all the tracks are there but with the wrong titles. I made it collaborative if case anyone wants to add them.

― Naive Teen Idol, Wednesday, 31 January 2024 16:24 (two years ago)

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