"songcraft" (in the cole porter/elvis costello/franklin bruno sense)

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classic or dud?

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

haha i just launched a passionate defense for it in a !!! review

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 May 2004 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

of course my positive example were the happy mondays so i might be a little offcenter here

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 May 2004 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

what was your passionate defense, strongo?

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

"if you're gonna make music via a band with people playing instruments and singing, then write some goddamn songs."

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 May 2004 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

"songs" v "songcraft"

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

classic when you're doing it well (e.g. early elvis costello)

dud when you're not (e.g. mid-to-late elvis costello)

but i'm dying to see a passionate argument against it.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 24 May 2004 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I just like shit that sounds cool

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 24 May 2004 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

but who's to say you can't have songcraft AND sound cool? like, say, the jesus and mary chain (who were more in the brian wilson sense than the cole porter sense, but they had songcraft just the same). or like the buzzcocks.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 24 May 2004 22:10 (twenty-two years ago)

when foax talk about songcraft i wish they could make a clearer distinction between saying it's a "good thing" and between saying it's "the only good thing" (not referring2 anyone on-thread here). i'm pretty sure it's possible to make music in a band and still be sound-based rather than song-based (strongo, u like sonic youth dontcha? i like em too, but i'm not hearing too many Songs there, or maybe we just appreciate different things about em)

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 24 May 2004 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

actually my point is a bit muddled, i'll try and write it out more coherently tomorrow. i'm guessing songcraft can extend beyond music with a geir-pleasing melody. so maybe i'm confused.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 24 May 2004 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I was just about to say Geir Hongro to thread... where has he been, anyway?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 24 May 2004 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Remastering the Genesis back catalogue

― Patrick Kinghorn, Monday, 24 May 2004 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

"...and between saying it's "the only good thing""

what i meant was - i think there's an implication in a lot of negative reviews of sound-based bands that the solution to their problems is to discover songcraft - as opposed to improving at the art of making textural/sound-based music.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 24 May 2004 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Speaking in ridiculous stereotype terms, fusty aren't-I-clever polished lyrics-over-music hoohah vs. sounding goddamn great and fuck the Brill Building standard. (In part this is my justification as to why digital beats are the key to salvation.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 May 2004 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

but that's a bit like saying music vs. lyrics. while you could have a great discussion about that -- i'm sure ILM has already had it a thousand times -- in the end it's a choice that you DON'T HAVE TO MAKE.

the first thing i hear on any record is the overall sound. then the beat. then probably the hook, which could mean a dozen different things depending on the song. then the changes. then the sound of the singer's voice. random words. (disclaimer: this order is somewhat random, too. who actually knows HOW they hear things?)

as for "songcraft," you never actually "hear" it, but when it's done well, you end up noticing. and cole porter did not have a monopoly on songcraft. the ramones had impeccable songcraft. prince had it and occasionally still does. the neptunes have it. dizzee rascal has it.

if the question is, is it good to structure your songs exactly the way elvis costello does, i'd say, "not unless you're elvis costello, and even then you should tread carefully."

if the question is, is it good to structure your songs well, i'd say fuck yeah.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

there is plenty of well-crafted instrumental pop songs, lyrics do not a song make.

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

in the end it's a choice that you DON'T HAVE TO MAKE.

I know, thus my 'ridiculous stereotype' point. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

is=are = my grammar sux

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

there is plenty of well-crafted instrumental pop songs, lyrics do not a song make.

well, yeah. i don't think anyone here was saying otherwise. i certainly wasn't.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

ned - stereotypically and ridiculously, i missed your ridiculous stereotype preface!

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Happiness is had!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

the question could maybe be a TS between songcraft and "songcraft" -- i.e. songs that are well-written compared with stuff by guys like stephin merritt (which can be great but can be really tryhard and laborious too and i hate it when reviews get all up on "songcraft"'s dick like it's the only real righteous path to pop salvation).

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

but this thread isn't about critics, it's about songwriters.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"tryhard" is my new favorite adjective. i intend to use it frequently.

seriously.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:23 (twenty-two years ago)

well, yeah. i don't think anyone here was saying otherwise.

not explicitly but that seems to be the tone.

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Stockholm Cindy just summed up what I hated so much about all the hosannas around the time of 69 Love Songs!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

a lot of that costello stuff is like LOOK! SONGCRAFT! DO YOU SEE! and i used to love it (and still do sometimes) but more and more i'm finding this kind of music really manipulative.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost:

i mean, this thread is basically "artists whose lyrics i don't like"

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-post)

69 love songs is a perfect example of good songcraft and middling sound. the magnetic fields have made far better sounding records and, as a result, just plain far better records. what i like most about 69 log songs is its audacity and volume ... it's the only record in history that i like because it's long. but that's an entirely different thread.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:29 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost:
(for the record, i think franklin bruno is an excellent lyricist).

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:29 (twenty-two years ago)

69 log songs

I've heard of bathroom humor and all...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:29 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-post to myself)

i have no idea what 69 log songs is, but it's probably not a magnetic fields record.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay..."

Plus 68 variants.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean, this thread is basically "artists whose lyrics i don't like"

not at all; i'm talking about music too.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost:
a cover of robert plant's "big log"?

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

69 Log Songs -- A Tribute to Robert Plant's Lemon

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

not at all; i'm talking about music too.

how so?

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

somehow "manipulative" seems like the right word to me, cindy, though maybe it's the right one given your point. seems more like it's a matter of narrowcasting to a specifically middlebrow kind of demographic (and I do not here--nor anywhere, I hope--use "middlebrow" as an insult; it's a descriptive term, hopefully a self-explanatory one), and while in that sense it is manipulative of a certain audience's prejudices, I guess I tend to think of that description as more of a mass-mind kind of thing. but that's probably just me.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:34 (twenty-two years ago)

how so?

refer to the fact that i haven't used the word "lyrics" at all here.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

exactly: what's so manipulative about the music of these 3 artists in particular?

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

all music is manipulative.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 24 May 2004 23:42 (twenty-two years ago)

except for aleatory composition

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

exactly: what's so manipulative about the music of these 3 artists in particular?

adding to what matos said about narrowcasting to a certain mindset -- sometimes when i hear, say, franklin bruno do one of his tricky/clunky melodic doodads that resolve in a snazzy chord change, it feels to me like he had his reviews ("breathtaking melodies!" "dazzling changes"! "a master of the pop form!") already written in his head before he even finished writing the song.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

that makes perfect sense. I just wanted to clarify--thanks.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

i have to state for the record that i love love love this style of music when it's done well, but i also think that to appreciate it properly i need to loosen myself from its grip a little.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I cannot stand idly by and let someone defame my hometown hero...

*cries*

I think you're projecting thoughts and emotions onto songwriters, in this specific case, Franklin. It just brings up all kinds of pointless issues ("authenticity" being the main one - what is the songwriter's intention, etc.). I doubt Franklin writes songs specifically to get good reviews. What's more, why should it matter to you if he does, as long as the song is GOOD?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 24 May 2004 23:48 (twenty-two years ago)

i also have to state that i like franklin bruno and jenny toomey's tribute album was one of my favorite records from that year.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

for example, your criticism about particular "clunky" changes is more a criticism of Frankling *failing* at the pop form more than anything else. Part of mastering the pop song form is learning to keep the architecture of the song transparent - if the listener hears you trying too hard, you've failed.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 24 May 2004 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

is projection not a valid form of criticism, shakey?

Part of mastering the pop song form is learning to keep the architecture of the song transparent - if the listener hears you trying too hard, you've failed.

I'm using "clunky" as a descriptive term, not a criticism. I mostly agree with you (re architecture of music AND lyrics) but as an art-punk type person i find a lot of artistic merit in well-wrought clunk.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 24 May 2004 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never heard a franklin bruno song, but i don't think I've ever heard an elvis costello song that could compare to a cole porter song. Even a minor cole porter song.

But as far as the thread goes: yeah, good songs are classic!

(Maybe you were thinking of Bacharach and not elvis?)

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

i love the living fuck out of burt bacharach's best material.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

(although hal david takes some of the blame there)

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 00:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I just always think of great songs as sounding effortless and Elvis's stuff often sounds like ALL effort. Like he's gonna pull a muscle or bust a blood vessel in order to make something pretty.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

In other words, I'll take Sondheim. Not that I haven't enjoyed some Elvis in the past, I have. But most of that stuff was of the pissed-off variety.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 00:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Songcraft to me is like someone writing you a letter. Where they're able to compose their thoughts from a distance when they're more level headed about it all (after WHO knows how many drafts?). They have something they want to discuss with you and can't have you interrupting into their stream of thought while they do so...

Whereas...i guess "regular" songs are more like conversations face to face, all fast and on the fly, you say something, it's gonna be heard. The other person is right in front of you, and there's no way to take back what you said...more confrontational, not so removed..

at least that's the impression i get sometimes. All depends on who's doing the writing of course!

...if that makes any sense to anyone?!?

― Phil Dokes (sunny), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I know there's a separate thread for Nellie McKay, but we really need to get her into this thread and give her what she deserves. This is the worst example of "song" "craft" (all quotes intentional) I have run into in some time - and I'm a guy (possibly the only one) who likes Elvis Costello's North. EVERY SINGLE LINE IS PURE SMUGNESS.

I was so disappointed to read Sasha Frere-Jones' positive review of her in the New Yorker. He was batting 1.000 with me up to then. I guess I can forgive.

― southern lights (southern lights), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

...Elvis's stuff often sounds like ALL effort. Like he's gonna pull a muscle or bust a blood vessel in order to make something pretty.

hell his singing alone is like that.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 21:16 (twenty-two years ago)

oh and that Nellie McKay record sounds like the worst thing ever.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

except for aleatory composition

WRONG!

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 26 May 2004 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

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