taking sides: steve ignorant vs. john lydon

At what?

Rotten has a better resume, and Ignorant unfortunately is more remembered for his utterings on "Do They Owe Us A Living?".... so, at first instinct, Rotten. Though later, more arty Crass has a certain nihilistic style that can't be touched... mostly thanks to Eve Libertine though. "Yes Sir I Will" and "10 notes on a Summer Day" are amazing... certainly influential to your more angular DC punk.

Steve Ignorant totally screwed up punk, which I guess is pretty punk, but I still don't like him.

Lydon all the way, as if this is a question. Crass were good either when the women sang or when no one sang. Even then they never released anything that could touch "Anarchy in the UK," Second Edition, or Flowers of Romance. And Lydon's take on anarchy is much more reasonable.

No way was Lydon better at anything! Period. John Lydon was the guy who would use a new form of outlandish style and music as his vehicle for self promotion. Steve used punk as a vehicle to bring about ideas that weren't popular and he stood and still does stand behind them (I interviewed him in 2000 when he was touring the US with Stratford Mercenaries). Lydon is little more than a freaking cartoon character whose remarks in the UK amounted to someone saying "Fuck Reagan" in the US during the '80s. Ignorant, however, attempted to rally troops and fight against the political system of Thatcher and friends much like many people did during the Civil Rights days in the US. Hands down the winner is Lydon - and only poseur punks with mohawks and sleeveless denim jackets would say it were Lydon.

oops

Sex Pistols kick ass and so does Crass. They both are very creative. They both make very good songs like EMI, New York, ect. and Crass has Punk is dead ,Do they owe us a living too! wow to the retailer

I can't even believe this is an argument. Coming from a working-class background, I have to say Steve Ignorant and the rest of Crass totally beats out the Sex Pistols. Crass are actually interested in social change, not just causing a ruckus while getting thousands upon thousands of bucks just to live in nonsensical, petty upper class lives once they fucked everyone over, including themselves. Sex Pistols were not in it for anything other than self-gratification and a fuck-all to the rest of society. Crass actually got ideas out there to those of us who will not stand and take the status quo as a given that will never change. Crass made me, as well as thousands upon thousands of others, believe that life was what we made of it, in numbers, we can change the current political and social structure of our rapidly decaying lives. Their music is what, ultimately got me to think about life in a whole, and got me to think and rethink my political/life/social affiliations. I give a shit about what happens to me and the future, and I put my foot in the door of the next revolution. Till the working class led Socialist revolution, Rock On!, and let the message of victory (possible and hoped for) continue.

Yeah, but what about those people who have considered that option and find it wanting?

What is the point in arguing about it.I think that both Ignorant and Rotten share more or less the same idea but have gone about it in different ways.Lydon appealed more to the less politically minded. Ignorant pushed the political stance of punk further and to a different audience.As Combat Shock say,Punk is Punk ,This Our Tradition.Up the punx!

"Till the working class led Socialist revolution"
You've got a long wait ahead of you then.

sex pistols upper class? don't think so. just because a couple of them went to art school.

there is something to be said for both, although Crass were certainly the more cerebral punk band - like the Dead Kennedy's. That doesn't mean the Sex Pistols weren't good too - I loved both equally but for different reasons back in the late 70's and early 80's.

just love them both for what they were!

Steve Ignorant definitely. Seeing how Crass was probably the first totally DIY band, and the Sex Pistols were just a bunch look-good, bad boys, with attitude, put together by Malcolm McClaren (some suit in case you were wondering). The thought that anarchism is violence and chaos is the thinking of someone who clearly does not understand anarchy (Lydon). Steve Ignorant's views and interpretation of anrachism are those of the true anarchist and he put that into his music. To the person who said that he agreed more with Lydon's view of anarchy, I would very much like to hear your interperation of what anarchy is. Anarchy is a stateless society with no classes, this would result in peace because everyone would be totally self reliant and autonomic (no fighting or acting in the name of someone else). The Sex Pistols' view that anarchy is chaos is total bullshit, fighting and chaos is constantly happening all around you, in the name of one form of organization or the other.

The way I see it, the question is entirely too vague to get a clear discussion going. But, since I'm bored and opinionated, I'll put my two cents in: If you're talking about originality in music, then hands down Crass wins. Name a band that sounds like them which came before. The Sex Pistols' sound pretty much came from the New York junkie rock and roll scene in the late 60s and early 70s. If, however, you're talking about who was better at giving the public what it wants, then Sex Pistols win hands down. The things Crass was talking about people just didn't want to hear. Now if you're talking about influence, that's where the hard part comes in. Because, overall, you'd have to say the Sex Pistols were more influential. But let's look at who they influenced. Yes, for the most part they are people who still dress in spikey leather and shave their heads into mohawks. It's hard to say that you're in it to be an individual when your main goal is to look cool like all the other punks you hang around with. These people are only into the look-at least in my experience. Not that there's anything wrong with that, because, after all, that's all punk started out to be: an extension of the rebellious rock and roll attitude. Let's not kid ourselves. Who did Crass influence? I think they influenced the people who were seriously sick of all the bullshit that invades every aspect of social life, and at least entertained the thought of doing something about it. But I must say that these people--in my experience at least--tend to be just as elitist as the "cool", spikey-haired punk rockers. It's all a matter of aesthetics, people. My opinion is that none of that matters in the long run. If you want a truly detached point of view go listen to DEVO, and what they're saying. Everything around us points to the downfall of the human race. Even the fact that people think the way Lydon or Ignorant think points to this. Human advancement (intellectually or technologically) has always walked the fine line between altruism and corruption, with corruption almost always winning. As we get further along, I think it's obvious that corruption will always bury altruism. After all, when I hear the question "who's better, steve ignorant or johnny rotten?", that's really what you're talking about---corruption versus altruism. So, although I've never really liked the sex pistols, and I tended as a youngster to be pissed off like crass, and still am pissed off, maybe John Lydon had it right, because maybe he realized that the human race is doomed anyway, so he decided to take the money and run. And who is really playing god on judgement day here? I guess right now it's my turn. So, if you think I'm being pessimistic by saying the human race is doomed no matter what Ignorant or Lydon say or do, than you're giving the human race way too much credit. Thank you and good night.

The Sex Pistols' sound pretty much came from the New York junkie rock and roll scene in the late 60s and early 70s

Really? The Ramones, Velvets, Richard Hell, Television, Patti, etc., don't sound anything to me like the Pistols. Except for the Dolls and maybe the Modern Lovers, I think the influence of the whole New York thing on the UK punks is really overstated. It's just another way of saying "there's nothing new under the sun," of complaining that such- and-such 'important' artist is just a rip-off of blahblahblah, when in fact the punk revolution was one of the few times in the recent history of pop music that something new WAS happening.

I've heard that the Pistols were influenced by the Dolls & the Heartbreakers, and maybe the Stooges.. and the Ramones kind of kicksatrted the scene, maybe - but also by the Pretty Things, David Bowie, Roxy Music, Hawkwind, The Small Faces ... Seems as if there was a lot of overlap & give/take parallel developement between US punk & UK punk. So to say that any scene was a direct result of anyone or anything is a bit narrow.

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ps the actual answer (on the assumption the question is not merely a CATEGORY ERROR ahem) is SLADE...

no not the answer to the thread q: crass had a fantastic guitarsound sometimes but that was not steve ignorant's doing

Hmmm. I think it's pretty safe to say that the sex pistols sound closer to bands like, say, the stooges, than Crass does to, well, anyone. Help me understand how that is narrow. I wasn't saying either one was better than the other (crass or sex pistols), and I was not trying to show anyone how much I know about punk rock. (well, maybe I kinda was). But what I was saying was, who was more original. I see that two seperate people spouted off a list of bands that sex pistols might sound like, but not one band that crass sounded like. I guess that speaks for itself. As for "complaining that such- and-such 'important' artist is just a rip-off of blahblahblah, when in fact the punk revolution was one of the few times in the recent history of pop music that something new WAS happening", it's funny that someone would get this impression from what I was saying. Yes, I think the sex pistols suck, but that has nothing to do with what I was saying. As far as how "important" they were is pure speculation. There were so many bands saying many important things that were, in my opinion, way better than the sex pistols. That being said, I'll leave you with this: opinions are like dirty baby diapers---they're always shitty and they're always being changed

The pistols were in it for the show and cash, crass meant what they were saying.

Johnny Rotten wins hands down. Crass were a bunch of boring hippies who simply wanted to replace the existing social straight jacket with there own tedious, right-on, hippy straight jacket. The Pistols were having a laugh and millions of people across the world laughed with them.

john lydon never was fucking punk, he was a little cock who auditioned to present an image that was meant to figure head the "punk" revolution. his songs all sound depressingly similar.

Vyvyan vs. Rick

Vyvyan vs. Rick

Vyvyan vs. Rick

Who cares... crass were a great band, so what? Forget the whole fucking punk movement... They failed!

wow ive been posting a long time

STEVE IGNORANT. ^_^ Sexy man!! I