gangstarr and jeru the damaja

Jeru was always kinda meh for me.

Gang Starr aren't as animated or trend driven as most other hip hop around, but I think that consistency and truth to themselves has always been their strength.

Anyway I love both albums, it was probably my piece you read on Jeru (in stylus right?) The production is some of my favorite..erm...ever. Premier's style was incredibly musical and creative - if "Come Clean" isn't hitting you, perhaps it's just the way yr hearing it. Much like "Get Low", it didn't fully hit me until I heard it on a good system in a club/ at a hip-hop show.

I love the production because, primarily, of the drums, which (as always on premier tracks) are so fucking HARD. And yeah, Jeru and Guru have their weaknesses, but during that peak period, they were pretty incredible - Guru's flow more laid back, Jeru's more stern and dominating. Lyrically Guru was a touch classier but Jeru was a great amalgamation of the whole 5%er movement which was so huge in those days, even though he came at the tail end of it.

I donno I talk a bunch about Jeru in my piece.

as for Gang Starr - "DWYCK", "FALA", "Suckas Need Bodyguards" and "Code of the Streets" are fucking anthems, and "Mass Appeal" may be one of my favorite tracks...erm...ever. It was hip-hop moving from instrument-sampling to this programmatic NOISE/SOUND sorta thing. It sounds v. much like the sound of urban america.

i find gang starr really hard to listen to since i admitted to myself finally just how shitty guru really is.

HARDLY.

I know a lot of ppl who don't like guru (I love him) so I know where Strongo is coming from. (although I'm not sure what kind of criticism "trapped in its era" is).

But anyway...one trick pony?!

How does "Come Clean" sound anything like "DJ Premier in Deep Concentration" or "Code of the Streets" or "Mass Appeal" or "Ain't the Devil Happy"?! I understand how someone could say that CURRENTLY Premier has been reduced to one sort of trick (although I'd disagree to a certain extent) but during his height, he was easily the most consistently innovative and surprising producer in the genre. Or in American music on the whole.

I misread this, my bad.

The drums. The way the samples are used. The scratched chorus.

Hard to Earn? Definitely.

His first three Gang Starr albums, plus his work w/ Jeru, Notorious BIG, Nas etc? Definitely innovative. No one sounded like that before him, and tons of people have imitated that sound since. He brought the sonics of the turntables and DJing into hip-hop production. He brought the drums to the forefront of the sampling production style. He was the first to truly chop samples so they sounded like they were being scratched by a live DJ. He stayed relevent - his relevency INCREASED, even - as similarly groundbreaking producers (Q-tip, Large Pro, Pete Rock) were overtaken. He was one of the first true "auteurs" of hip-hop production, and easily the best up until Timbaland's rise.

So, yeah, I do think he was innovative in many respects.

Timbaland at this point (as Tim has pointed out) is no longer playing w/ rhythmic syncopations in his work - there's nothing really left to do with them that hip-hop and ragga producers aren't already doing. Similarly, once premier redefined his style to the minimalist, heavily chopped, drum dominated sound, it became formulaic. But just cuz his drums were the same doesn't mean the songs weren't innovative in other ways! "Mass Appeal" sounds NOTHING like "Ain't the Devil Happy".

except for the drums, which was all I was saying. I remember when all those albums came out. I didn't think "wow how innovative", I just thought "wow, some more Premo dopeness". I don't even know wtf innovative means really, and the term isn't very useful. He had a distinctive sound, which almost by definition makes him a one-trick pony. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with that.

It seems like everyone has forgotten about Kurtis Mantronik and Marly Marl.

he's an easy punching bag because he represents so much of what's good and bad about essentialist rap.

The thing about Premo's drums is that not only do the sound the same sonically in almost every track (it's always *that* hi-hat and *that* kick) but they all seem to have the same structure. Esp. his his hi-hats, they always do the same thing. Couple that with the fact that he programs the drums lazily, ie the pattern remains the same throughout the entire song.

erm have you heard the first four Gang Starr albums? None of those sound "formulaic" in the least.

Yes "oops," the drums are often v. similar nowadays (although it sounds to me like you haven't heard "Tried by 12") but back in the day - "Take it Personal" sounds anything like "Mass Appeal"?

Yeah, right. I of all people forgot about them. :-|

"one of the first". Yeah, Marley Marl and Mantronik too. And Large Pro, and Diamond D, and Showbiz, and Q-Tip, and Prince Paul, and Pete Rock etc. etc. etc.

My point was he was easily the best of these producers up until this time.

I agree "innovative" is a stupid term but suggesting Premier was not innovative bcuz he began to use the same drums at one pt. in the mid 90s is just ridiculous.

So "up until this time" means before RZA?

Yes, I have heard Tried by 12. Who hasn't? Take It Personal DOES sound like Mass Appeal. The only real difference is that Premo got some new equipment and/or better mastering/engineering.

The drums on take it personal are a chop of "skull snaps", they sound in no way like what became his "official sound" later on. It has nothing to do w/ better "equipment/ mastering/engineering"

And I completely disagree about Marley Marl, although its sort of stupid to compare them as they are of completely different times.

And yes, I think Premier is better than RZA. I think Premier was probably the best and most significant hip-hop producer until Timbaland.

It has nothing to do w/ better "equipment/ mastering/engineering"

It most certainly does. Listen to those two albums and tell me that they sound like they were done using identical equipment (meaning everything from sampler/sequencers to mixing board to compressors)

And jesus talk about a signature style! RZA has a much more specific and easy-to-identify style than premier.

Yes he does. I repeat that this is not a bad thing. If you wanna talk innovation, RZA wins. I like how he put: something like before Wu-Tang, hip hop sounded like other musics. You had hip hop that sample soul, that sampled jazz, etc, but RZA's music couldn't be called anything other than hip hop.

I think Premier's style definitely redefined how hip-hop sounded to a much greater degree.

And my pt. about the technology was not how different it sounded in terms of quality but in terms of beat construction - "Mass Appeal" and "Take it Personal" are constructed completely differently. To say that throughout his career Premier had one style, one "trick" as you say, is preposterous - to argue that he has that now? Arguable certainly (although "Evening News" suggests he has more tricks in the bag).

No shit. The point was that he turned into something completely knew, something that was fully hip hop.

And my pt. about the technology was not how different it sounded in terms of quality but in terms of beat construction - "Mass Appeal" and "Take it Personal" are constructed completely differently.

Yeah he got more minimal and kept on chopping the samples tighter and tighter. This was a result of the equipment he was using. This is the "trick" I'm talking about.

Premier's beat construction was a helluva lot more innovative, as he essentially redefined how production sounded at the time

As did RZA. The biggest leap Premo made was from Daily Op to Hard to Earn. 36 Chambers came out in the intervening year, and it was full of hard, dirty, chopped drums.

So...why do you listen to hip-hop? I mean, you should be listening to fucking Beethoven or something, no?

and haha, jess glad to hear you read that. You should have posted a comment though.

PS: How was I being "bitchy"? I just disagreed w/ what you said.

(and talk about bitchy/snarky comments, look at the last three posts by you guys...)

I assuemd you never heard it bcuz you were saying shit about his drums always sounding the same...that was the first of many examples I gave you where the drums were different.

you are LISTENING WRONG, duh

You are one snide motherfucker.

Apparently you read explaining why I think Premier was important and why I like him as accusing you of "listening wrong"?

xpost to oops - if he's not yr thing he's not yr thing, but denying his importance seems to run contrary to logic to me.

RZA changes up his patterns. There's always little subtle things going on. Well, there are in all my favs of his, of which there are many.

Strongo (if you read this thread again) - seriously, what is yr problem w/ me? You and Alex SF seem to really enjoy giving me shit.

the other Premier track on that album is even better and it features Foxy Brown. Check out "Got it Locked"

I've heard all the classic Kool G Rap tracks on that best of cold chillin' collection, plus a couple others. I think Kool G Rap is awesome...("Money in the Bank" shows the early production work of a young Large Professor!)

I like the "House of Hits" comp better than the "Best of", but you totally should pick up "Road to the Riches".

Did Premier not do Tried by 12? Well, there's another example of how often he's been imitated if so! It definitely sounds like him.

Regardless, the first three gang starr albums = the same pt. I was making w/ that song. (he definitely has switched up his drum style over time).

"haha"

Someone on ILM said something like this before in response to me. The only explanation I have for thinking this is that you're either not paying close attention or you take development to mean something different than I do---perhaps you have a narrower definition of it. I don't mean it in the linear, classical, Western sense; perhaps "variation on a theme" makes clearer what I mean. A track like "Da Mystery of Chessboxin'" alone has more things going on, more variations on the template, the "master beat", than everything Premier has ever done. (seriously. that's not a hyperbole)

WHAT? Not musical ideas? His brain planned them right? They occur within music don't they? That seems like a very *ahem* rockist stance.
I command you to go listen to that song right now. It's more than just "chopping a drum so it lands of kilter". There are many variations within that harpsichord 'motif', if you will. The snares are placed in different spots, just like a real drummer with real musical ideas would do! It's interesting, it holds my attention. It's rhythmic development within a circle, not melodic or harmonic development in a line. There is one idea, but there are multiple variations of that idea.

I kind of contradicted myself there; I think the term "idea" is troublesome here. Replace it with "theme". I'd count each variation---however subtle or minute---an idea.

WHAT? Not musical ideas? His brain planned them right? They occur within music don't they? That seems like a very *ahem* rockist stance.
I command you to go listen to that song right now. It's more than just "chopping a drum so it lands of kilter". There are many variations within that harpsichord 'motif', if you will. The snares are placed in different spots, just like a real drummer with real musical ideas would do! It's interesting, it holds my attention. It's rhythmic development within a circle, not melodic or harmonic development in a line. There is one idea, but there are multiple variations of that idea.

Sounds considerably more rockist to me, bcuz its the same thing that rockists argue about hip-hop when they talk about how playing a "real" guitar is better than using electronics/sampling bcuz of the minute differences that occur when yr hand actually comes in contact w/ the strings as opposed to a loop which sounds the same everyime. The fact is a musical motif is one thing - minute variations in sound (of course I realize they were intentional!) do not hold my attention as musical ideas - in RZA's case (and its something I love about RZA's production) the off kilter chopping gives his musical motifs edge, but it doesn't really qualify as "development" of those motifs - its just sorta contributing to the atmosphere of unease.

jeru's "come clean" is amazing DISCUSS.