Taking Sides: Joy at Sadness vs. Sadness at Joy?

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And which one is the birth of chaos?

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 28 June 2004 05:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I want this to have at least one answer.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:33 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't fully understand the question

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:35 (twenty-one years ago)

In music, which emotional impact of a song or piece do you prefer? Which songs could characterise each side of the equation?

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:38 (twenty-one years ago)

three weeks pass...

Revive.

No one could manage this.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 19 July 2004 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Joy at sadness, definitely.

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 19 July 2004 12:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there much sadness at joy in music?

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 19 July 2004 12:07 (twenty-one years ago)

The birth of chaos thing means absolutely nothing to me (just a feeble joke I suppose). But I often have the 'sadness at joy' feeling (as well as the more common other-way-round one). Anything that is uplifting and full of life makes me feel sad because it's all so temporary. You know, we'll all be dead one day. Something like Shapeshifters is a good example of that. It's so strutting and exploding with life and the sentiments beautiful but, as I say, we're all going to be dead. I just can't get away from that.

― David (David), Monday, 19 July 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

The 'birth of chaos' thing came from the conversation I had about the joy/sadness axis inversion; I suggested that 'sadness at joy' was the birth of chaos because of it triggering an inexorable descent.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 19 July 2004 12:33 (twenty-one years ago)

i feel 'sadness at joy' a lot and David OTM as to why this happens. i find it's especially common in lots of euphoric music, usually dance or pop. i think that with music intended for the dancefloor a feeling of euphoria is (for me) inseparable from the knowledge that the euphoria will not last. this sounds a bit miserable but it doesn't have to be, i think it makes the fleeting moments of joy very powerful. some songs that i think capture this emotional state perfectly:

abba - dancing queen
daft punk - one more time
junior senior - move your feet

i have no idea what this 'birth of chaos' stuff means!

― pete b. (pete b.), Monday, 19 July 2004 13:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I very rarely think about death. I think I'm very centered in 'now' with little thought for the past or future most of the time (not always, obv.), ergo the idea that the euphoria is fleeting doesn't get to me so much. That it took a LONG time to come can though.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 19 July 2004 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

You'll feel it when you get older. It's natural. It's why pensioners gaze fondly but slightly sadly at children they see in the street.

― David (David), Monday, 19 July 2004 13:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmmm... I wrote something about that kind of thing recently. I didn't associate it with age or death or anything though, just a kind of extra-temporal yearning.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 19 July 2004 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Like I said it all makes sense when you get older. But you have to GET older first to understand. I think it's an emotion that creeps to the surface the older you get so it can occur when you're younger but much less frequently (unless you're very unusual or mentally ill or something).

― David (David), Monday, 19 July 2004 13:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure what you mean by 'extra-temporal yearning'

― David (David), Monday, 19 July 2004 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)

A yearning that exists (or seems to exist) outside of consideration of age or time. It's not yearning for anything, it's just a sense of... possibility.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 19 July 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

OK. I understand what that means technically as a sentence in English but it doesn't mean anything to me. Could you give an example of a situation where you've had that feeling?

― David (David), Monday, 19 July 2004 13:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll see if I can find the thing I wrote a while ago about it later on. I'm thinking it might be the same thing twisted through different people's philosophies. I'm writing about Dublin at the moment so it'll probably be this evening.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 19 July 2004 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, boys and girls, give your definiton of love

It's in here, just ctrl+f 'yearning'.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 19 July 2004 14:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Wanting or yearning to BE someone else isn't something I've ever felt. Being envious of or admiring the qualities they have yes, of course. Maybe I'm too self-obsessed. I don't know, why are they 'generally' 13-30? That would seem to be an age/time-related thing in some way. Is it a completely positive feeling or does it have an aftertaste of dissatisfaction with your own sense of self?

― David (David), Monday, 19 July 2004 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess they're generally 13-30 because I'm 25 and I can't recall much before 13 or imagine much after 30 in terms of how I might feel. Plus also I don't imagine I'd feel that pang of infinite potential in someone considerably older than me simply because they'd have that much less life left. It's a very odd sensation, it's like a complete erosion of ego for a moment - I wonder how this person feels, how they see the world, if they realise all the things they could do? - less about 'being' someone than understanding them and how they feel about the world I suppose. It doesn't really leave an aftertaste of dissatisfaction. I guess it's an extention of 'people watching', which is something I do a lot of, trying to figure out why people do things and how they feel by observing them.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 20 July 2004 06:42 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

The original question here never really got answered.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 6 October 2005 08:20 (twenty years ago)

Between those two options, I've got to go with the sadness-at-joy side of the equation. The joy-in-sadness thing just reminds me of certain angsty or mopey bands ~~like the Smiths/Cure~~ who shall remain nameless, bands that I just never got into. Not to say anything bad about 'em, just not my sort of thing. "Dancing Queen" upthread was an excellent example of sadness in joy, as are certain songs by Joni Mitchell, the Ronettes and other girl-groups.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Thursday, 6 October 2005 13:47 (twenty years ago)

and maybe happy together by the turtles. though there's a fair amount of creepiness and ominousness in there as well.

i do wonder how much the sadness in sadness at joy comes from one's own emotional context, and the same goes for the joy in joy at sadness. i'm guessing a lot of it is internal, so joy at sadness is more awesome than sadness at joy.

― carly (carly), Thursday, 6 October 2005 13:51 (twenty years ago)

I'll take Sadness in Joy for two hundred, Alex. I have a feeling that joy - sadness = happiness, and while happiness is pretty nice, it lacks poignancy or hmm...transcendence.

Joy in Sadness I think is the territory of saints and mystics and wise old women, so maybe I'll get there one day.

― Laurel (Laurel), Thursday, 6 October 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

I'm for Joy at Sadness. Or, rather, joy in the beauty of a song that channels sadness.

I don't buy into the sadness in joy thing as explained upthread, I think the temporal nature of joy is a fundamental characteristic of joy, fully appreciated in the experience. It would be sufficiently less euphoric if it were to last longer (i.e. the brevity allows for higher peak, or joy experienced all the time becomes mundane [ask any junkie]).

Guess maybe I shoulda just said something about diminishing returns

― Laney, Thursday, 6 October 2005 14:36 (twenty years ago)

two years pass...

Bump.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 4 March 2008 22:37 (eighteen years ago)

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