Nick Tosches

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i mean i think that he is a good critic, writes well, has interesting things to say, does his homework, but what is w. the casual racism (esp. the constant dropping of the n word for no good reason in country)

anthony, Monday, 28 June 2004 11:36 (nineteen years ago) link

Nick Tosches - S&D

i don't think "racism" is the appropriate word. i think his reasons for using it are complicated. part of it is simply a vice magazine-like desire to shock his (presumably urban white) audience.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:46 (nineteen years ago) link

also tosches is the rare rock journalist who essays blatant self-parody and still (usually) comes up smelling roses. see his prose-poem in the liner notes of revenant's charlie feathers cd.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:48 (nineteen years ago) link

An acquaintance of mine, after seeing him read (after Don DeLillo and Gay Talese!) at Barnes & Noble: "He looks like he could use a prosthetic head."

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:08 (nineteen years ago) link

amateur!st OTM. It was a mid-70s protopunx-shock-the-hippies thing, cf. Patti's song "Rock and Roll 'N'". Lester Bangs dropped the 'N' word every chance he got for awhile in Creem. Sometimes carelessly, sometimes very pointedly as in his debunking of Bob Dylan's "Hurricane." (his best article IMHO) Of course Lester later repudiated it in his Village Voice anti-racism screed (his worst article IMHO, a lecture on tolerance from a guy in a "last of the white 'n'" t-shirt.)
I don't feel comfortable even quoting the word, because I grew up with so many bigoted jerks who tossed it around, taught it to their kids, etc. But I don't think using the "n" word automatically qualifies as racist. As you say, it's complicated.
After reading some of Tosches' recent autobiographical eruptions re:substance abuse, I'm wondering about the state of his health. He might need a prosthetic liver, too. Hope we see more books from him in the future.

lovebug starski, Monday, 28 June 2004 12:30 (nineteen years ago) link

>Hope we see more books from him in the future.

As long as they're about music, yeah, maybe.

Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:44 (nineteen years ago) link

Phil, I agree totally. I thought "Trinities" was a pretty decent crime novel but "Dante" was a flat-out disaster. I put it down after a few chaps. As for the anti-publishing rant, some of it was recycled from the intro to his anthology. The guy's got balls, give him that much.

lovebug starski, Monday, 28 June 2004 12:57 (nineteen years ago) link

didin't joe carducci do a similar thing with the word 'faggot'?

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 28 June 2004 13:01 (nineteen years ago) link

I thought Carducci came off as a garden-variety homophobe myself, w/ all that "fag wavers vs. flag wavers" crap. You know, there's just something THREATENING when synth-wielding wimps like Depeche Mode steal your girlfriends.

lovebug starski, Monday, 28 June 2004 13:10 (nineteen years ago) link

I remember Kris S. once said on these boards that Carducci himself was in fact gay, though I've seen no independent confirmation of this -- but even if it was true, it wouldn't substantially change my opinion of him or his fag-baiting crap. (And it's still funny considering the professional relationships he had with Husker Du and...um...Henry Rollins.)

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 28 June 2004 13:24 (nineteen years ago) link

Cut Numbers is also a pretty sweet little crime story.

Huk-El (Horace Mann), Monday, 28 June 2004 13:51 (nineteen years ago) link

Sometimes saying nigger is funny.

Matt Gilbertson, Monday, 28 June 2004 13:58 (nineteen years ago) link

I admit that some of Carducci's right-wing views made me uncomfortable, but I think he got a bad rap as far as the homophobia's concerned. First, as far as I can recall, he used the word "fag" almost exclusively for English bands, including such decidedly hetero bands as Duran Duran. Also, he had nothing but praise for Husker Du, with whom he worked of course, and 2/3 of whom were gay. And finally, there's a passage in his book in which he differentiates between "serious musicians who are gay by definition" and "fags" who seem more concerned with flamboyance than "rocking": remember, the chief adversarial relationship in his book is ROCK vs. POP. So while there was indeed a streak of homophobia in "Rock and the Pop Narcotic", I think that streak was much exaggerated by Xgau & other big-name mainstream critics who, after all, were the victims of much more Carducci wrath than any musician of whatever sexual preference.

(Actually, I don't wanna bend over too far to defend the guy; like I said, a lot of what he wrote I found offensive or ridiculous. [Not to mention poorly-spelled!] But he also had a lot of incisive observations that had rarely seen print before.)

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Monday, 28 June 2004 14:24 (nineteen years ago) link


The fact that he had to make these silly little trainspotting qualifications doesn't amp up the happiness factor at all -- its sounds like the tortured rationalizations of someone who *has* to work with gays whether he likes it or not, so after much thought he settles on the idea that just he prefers "not-very-gay" gays over "gay" gays, thereby allowing him access to his friends without forcing him to up-end the prejudices much. Of course, I'm projecting wildly here, who knows what it all "really" "means" or if he's a true blue homophobic asshole in real life, could even be some kind of toothless shock thing (which would *still* make me suspicious of him)...don't know, don't especially care.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 28 June 2004 14:50 (nineteen years ago) link

He's interviewed in perfect sound forever in 1999. Here's what joe says about using the word fag

So as far as that word I think the word faggot or fag... It's one thing to call someone that personally in a public space, but it's another thing to use it as a cultural term that I believe everyone knows. I think homosexuals use the term the same way I do. It's about a posture and that posture has been around rock n' roll for quite a while. Actually it's been around at least since the blues. You see a few 78 (rpm) titles that are about the homosexual underground and maybe some of those bluesmen were gay. The weird self-policing on those kind of issues was part of what the problem was, so I just figured, well I'll just take advantage of leaving the business and not worry about it, use it when it's apropos. It's also written in an almost absurdist style, a collision of academic and street styles. I thought that it was funny.

the full interview is here http://www.furious.com/perfect/carducci.html

jb, Monday, 28 June 2004 16:28 (nineteen years ago) link

Country I'd have to go back and look at, but I think he's doing it to heighten the literary effect in discussing the racism that pervades the music he's chronicling. Where Dead Voices Gather actually has a very nice and delicate sensitivity towards racism, tho not in a typical way. In plenty of his novels, too, you gotta remember that his characters are supposta be racist scumbags and all, so he writes em like that. I'm finding parts of Left Hand... right now pretty tough to slog through, but I'm actually enjoying somma his florid prose, as long as I just go with it instead of demanding stupid rockist things like "plot".

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:57 (nineteen years ago) link

Left Hand = Hand of Dante?

I agree there are some really great passages, but there's an at least equel amount of pure self-indulgent claptrap. Like he's not just writing with his dick, he's trying to beat you over the head with it.

Huk-El (Horace Mann), Monday, 28 June 2004 17:00 (nineteen years ago) link

You really shouldn't use the word "fag" in personal way and in a public space, but it's OK if you use "faggot" as a cultural term, as opposed to a non-cultural term, which would be bad even if it meant something! I think homosexuals use the term the same way I do. I mean, I think so. I'm not really sure. So, you see, I care. I do! But not all that much. Not enough to be certain. But what difference does it make anyway? A bunch of dead people used to use the word lot oh, fifty, sixty, seventy years ago, so that makes it OK. In fact, maybe some of them were gay, too! Think about it! I guess I could also use other quaint terms like "B.D." or "sissy man" for the same reasons but I don't want to police myself or others, that's bad...except of course when it comes to matters of rocking. Then it's good. And anyway, it's absurdist, which means you shouldn't take me seriously at all! Except on the matters of rocking. You really should take me seriously about that. So, yeah: FAG. There! FAG. FAGGOT. FAGGOTY FAGGOT FAG. It's funny! Tee-hee!

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 28 June 2004 17:18 (nineteen years ago) link

I apologize for the tone of that last post -- it makes me sounds like Momus or something.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 28 June 2004 18:04 (nineteen years ago) link

Tosches came under fire, notably from J. Whiteside in LA Weekly, about his shoddy research. Said that "Unsung Heroes" contained a lot of inaccuracies, ditto "Dino." Don't know myself--I do know that Cohn's "Rock from the Beginning" was chock-full of inaccurate names, dates, but still remains the best book on rock music, in my opinion. So maybe it doesn't matter...still, I think someone, like Tosches, who purports to set the record straight and all that, and to give liberal sensibilities a jolt by using "nigger" (OK, he was writing about a different time, or was it really that different, hmm, that seems to be his point?), ought to be accurate.

"Hand of Dante" is unreadable; "Cut Numbers" I find far superior to "Trinities"; I also found his Sonny Liston bio and "Dead Voices Gather" pretty hard going, crabbed would be the word. And going thru his Da Capo "Reader" I'm struck by how much shit is there, and I think he's great, at times, but distinctly inferior to Meltzer for the most part. However, "Hellfire" is classic--whether it's "accurate" I don't know...

eddie hurt (ddduncan), Monday, 28 June 2004 18:57 (nineteen years ago) link

accuracy seems to be pretty beside the point with most of Tosches's books, especially Unsung (cf Esau Smith). And despite noyzboize whatever, style-wise he's not very comparable to Meltzer at all.

Huk-El (Horace Mann), Monday, 28 June 2004 19:02 (nineteen years ago) link

Sure, Esau Smith is obviously a rip. But the other profiles, I'd like to think they are accurate. Yeah, I like Meltzer's style better than I like Tosche's style.

eddie hurt (ddduncan), Monday, 28 June 2004 19:05 (nineteen years ago) link

Come on, those other profiles are pure myth making and gossip. They're fun as hell because the writing's great but you can't seriously take any of those as historical fact. His main objective is to make these folks bigger than life.

danh (danh), Monday, 28 June 2004 19:10 (nineteen years ago) link

Have you ever read But Beautiful by Geoff Dyer?
It's a more openly fictional take on a bunch of jazzbos. Not as puerile as Tosches, but definitely the same sort of myth-making/affirming stuff.

Huk-El (Horace Mann), Monday, 28 June 2004 19:23 (nineteen years ago) link

i don't really turn to tosches for factual accuracy. i would suggest that anyone wishing to cite a "fact" from one of his books on music do some cross-checking. that said, i think his "country" book calls to renewed attention certain features of the country music story that had been (and would be again) neglected in the era of nashville/countrypolitan/etc. not quite a counter-tradition as much as lively activity on the margins. i think tosches really overstates his case, though, and makes a lot of stuff seem wild and crazee that really wasn't so wild and crazee (like the cover photo of riley puckett, a blind and unusually homely guy, which seems to try to invoke some kind of unhinged result of hillbilly inbreeding--when puckett's music is actually notable for its jazz-like virtuosity on the guitar and his sonorous voice). but at least tosches at his best is a genuinely good prose stylist-- i think. i like him more than bangs, marcus, and all the rest in that regard.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 28 June 2004 19:25 (nineteen years ago) link

"puerile" is a good word for the sort of overstatement i was trying to describe just now.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 28 June 2004 19:25 (nineteen years ago) link

wasn't there at least one artist featured in unsung heroes who turned out not to exist?

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 11:49 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah "esau smith"

duane, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 12:21 (nineteen years ago) link

though it's not like, uh, y'know, it was a that big of a hoax...

Huk-El (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 13:39 (nineteen years ago) link

what about ming and ling, did they exist?

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 13:59 (nineteen years ago) link

I believe so.
You can always cross-reference with http://www.rockabillyhall.com/
they cut a pretty wide swath.

Huk-El (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:02 (nineteen years ago) link

or the Bear Family catalogue

Huk-El (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:03 (nineteen years ago) link

(his worst article IMHO, a lecture on tolerance from a guy in a "last of the white 'n'" t-shirt.)

Tho to be fair he admits that from the get-go.

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:17 (nineteen years ago) link

or the Bear Family catalogue
-- Huk-El (handsomishbo...) (webmail), June 29th, 2004 8:03 AM. (Horace Mann) (later) (link)

if you have a bottomless trust fund...

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:55 (nineteen years ago) link

I didn't mean actually buying from it, I meant looking through the actual catalogue booklet, or its interweb form, you crazy assumer.

Huk-El (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:00 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah but Tosches in "Unsung Heroes" is out to bring the facts about pre-Elvis rock and roll to our attention. He prides himself on this, so I think accuracy counts. Now I think "Unsung Heroes" is really funny and well-written, sure, but that's not all one looks at, I don't think. "Country" is for sure a valuable and groundbreaking book, but same thing...anyone who cites so many facts should be held to a standard of accuracy. Even given his (to my mind) overdone love of Faulkner and his "license-taking."

eddie hurt (ddduncan), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 18:33 (nineteen years ago) link

The funniest thing about Tosches is his bitterness at the publishing business--considering that the publishing industry, from critics up to publishing houses, has kissed his alcoholic ass for years. The guy can't sell any books but he still gets six-figure advances. He's got NOTHING to be bitter about (at least when it comes to publishing).

shookout (shookout), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 18:44 (nineteen years ago) link

"Dante" wuz supposedly a national bestseller!?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 22:20 (nineteen years ago) link

I've yet to see (or hear) a single shred of evidence that Ming and Ling ever existed outside the pages of Unsung Heroes...

Andrew L (Andrew L), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 23:04 (nineteen years ago) link

everything Mr. Torschlees write about me inaccurate.

PS. Ming dead.

Ling, Wednesday, 30 June 2004 00:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Ming & Ling are mentioned (and just mentioned) for their recording of "Milk Cow Blues" on the Rockabilly Hall of Fame page. Whether this corroborates or merely stems from Unsung is none of my business.

Huk-L, Wednesday, 30 June 2004 00:48 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, it was a National Bestseller, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. That means the book appeared for a week or more on a 'regional' list (LA Times, Boston Globe), which basically means that the author was in town on a book tour and sold 50 books in a list-reporting store in one location within a short span of time. To put it in persepctive, selling 50,000 to 75,000 albums is a failure for even many independent labels, whereas the same numbers are perfectly respectable for even the most mainstream of book publishing houses. This is not to say that sales are by any means the measure of someone's artistry, but Tosches' screeds about publishing seem odd to me considering how much worse many other deserving authors have fared, critically or commerically.

shookout (shookout), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 03:11 (nineteen years ago) link

ok now i'm confused. LOTS of deserving authors don't sell well and this is supposed to prove that the industry DOESN'T deserve his screeds!!??

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 03:37 (nineteen years ago) link

hand bite feeds

Huk-El (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:10 (nineteen years ago) link

To put it in persepctive, selling 50,000 to 75,000 albums is a failure for even many independent labels

er, which independent labels? for most, selling 10,000 copies is a real success.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:19 (nineteen years ago) link

Guess I'm thinking of bigger ones, like Matador.

Anyway, Clover, the industry doesn't deserve his screeds because he's done really well, considering. He keeps getting six-figure advances and critics keep licking his balls, even if no one reads him. As far as the sad little business of publishing goes, he's done far better than most. So yeah, I think his bitterness probably has more to do with alcoholism than any real valid complaint against publishing.

And one can only blame publishers so much. It's PEOPLE who have stopped reading and buying books. If they ever really did.

shookout (shookout), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 18:45 (nineteen years ago) link

matador is independant like i write bestsellers.

anyfuckingway alcoholism is the most valid complaint against publishing there is. cf. exley, pace hemmingway.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 1 July 2004 03:39 (nineteen years ago) link

how is alcoholism "a complaint against publishing"?

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 1 July 2004 04:49 (nineteen years ago) link

have a sense of poetry ams!

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 1 July 2004 04:50 (nineteen years ago) link

cf exley, pace hemmingway.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 1 July 2004 04:51 (nineteen years ago) link

from Dino:
Airs, waters and places had conspired against him. There could be no happiness but in waving away the world; none but in being apart, unthinking, unfeeling. He had heard of Dante and the Commedia, of the hundred cantos that rose toward a paradise of light, love and reason with the breath of a woman at their heart. Pura Luce, piena d'amore. But what was all the light and love in the world compared to a single good blowjob? That was what women did to men, turned them into fucking pazzo poets. And what the fuck did Dante know about hell? Dante Alighieri and Jerry Lewis. Nine years of listening to that mortucrist' wail and whine -- then he really could have written a fucking Inferno. Fuck it all. Fuck all that love, light and reason shit. Fuck Beatrice where she breathed. Fuck the moon in your eye like a big pizza pie. It was a racket, all right. You sang your song, you wrote your poem: a crust of bread, a jug of wine, and thou. It sounded so sweet. But a million bucks, a bottle of Scotch, and a blowjob -- that's what it comes down to. It was like the clown in the opera said: La commedia e finita

lovebug satyrski, Thursday, 1 July 2004 09:10 (nineteen years ago) link

fifteen years pass...

R.I.P.

drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Monday, 21 October 2019 00:23 (four years ago) link

Only 69.

curmudgeon, Monday, 21 October 2019 04:09 (four years ago) link

I wonder if a mainstream publisher (not sure how big the Stranded publisher was) would print his Sticky Fingers essay today.

clemenza, Monday, 21 October 2019 15:34 (four years ago) link

rip. that stranded prologue was profoundly influential on my writing though i haven't reread it in ages

american bradass (BradNelson), Monday, 21 October 2019 15:39 (four years ago) link

rip. Too young.

Life is a meaningless nightmare of suffering...save string (Chinaski), Monday, 21 October 2019 16:34 (four years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Just got library ecopy of Country and it’s really good, doesn’t seem dated.

Irae Louvin (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 10 November 2019 23:06 (four years ago) link

There are two editions! Took bits from/added others to the second. Wonder why he took some (might have seemed too ripe, even for him?), but glad for adds.

dow, Monday, 11 November 2019 03:56 (four years ago) link

Don't have them at hand, so can't list pub. dates.

dow, Monday, 11 November 2019 03:58 (four years ago) link


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