TS: television vs. wire

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has this been done? sorry if so. just reading the van halen/television thread made me wonder what everyones position on this is.

i say wire. maybe a more interesting question is this - TS: pink flag vs. marquee moon.

or maybe chairs missing vs MM?

― peter smith (plsmith), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

154 vs. MM is more like it

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I refuse to choose.

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

refuse to LOSE

― peter smith (plsmith), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:36 (twenty-one years ago)

wire wire wire wire wire wire wire wire wire wire wire

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Wire had more good songs, but Television's good songs were better than Wire's good songs.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Wire

― Player Piano Gamelan (ex machina), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:00 (twenty-one years ago)

i think pink flag, the song, is better than anything on marquee moon.

― peter smith (plsmith), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Not significant, in this particular case, to Wire voters that Television were such better players (and, I think, had a better guitar sound)?

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Television, by a country fuggin' mile.

― Iggy Bliss, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

without question, wire

― coco, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Not significant, in this particular case, to Wire voters that Television were such better players (and, I think, had a better guitar sound)?

Better in what way? Wire had lots of great guitar sounds. Television had one or, at most, two.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Television had better guitar [i]solos[/i]. To which I say, bfd. Wire all the way. Who cares about "playing"? Wire used the studio.

― 4kflka, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

(guess that's not how you do italics here...)

― 4kflka, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Newman could play a bit, the others were total amateurs, therefore CLASSIC!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:33 (twenty-one years ago)

No question, Wire. Marquee Moon is one of the most overrated canonical albums I've ever made the mistake of buying..

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Dadaismus: Fender Jazzmaster and Telecaster through nice Fender Twins (played well). Next time I listen to Wire, I will listen for all of the guitar tones that you like and see what I think.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Wire. Television are fucking boring as hell. Fuck Tom Verlaine and lame ass poetry lyrics.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Wire, fuck TV

― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 15:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Television gets more and more tiring the more you listen to it, Wire gets proabbly lss tiring. That said I have a special place in my musicheart for Television since I found their album in my father's cd collection as an adolescent and thought they looked like junkies.

― artdamages (artdamages), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Wire.

― St. Nicholas (Nick A.), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Also "Little Johnny Jewel "is pretty great.

― artdamages (artdamages), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Television since I found their album in my father's cd collection as an adolescent and thought they looked like junkies.

Well Richard Lloyd was one

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Wire had more good songs

In TV's defense, Pink Flag has more songs on it than Television's entire catalogue.

I listen to Wire more, but I like Television better.

― Vic Funk, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyone other than me actually LIKE the attempted symbolist poetry on Marquee Moon???

Vic, true, but Wire also went on to do Chairs Missing, which I like, while Television went on to do Adventure. (Haven't heard Adventure in years, but I wasn't real fond of it back when I owned a copy of it.)

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:14 (twenty-one years ago)

This is essentially the "Is it better to do one thing really well, or lots of things fairly well?" question, except it's debatable whether Television did their thing "really well" (they've got about 4 or 5 classic songs and about 10 or 15 ok songs) and I think Wire did a lot of things REALLY well (ultraminimal art punk, synthpop experiments, etc.), so it's not really like that at all.

― St. Nicholas (Nick A.), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I quite like the attempted symbolist poetry on "Marquee Moon" too. I mean it's not like Wire ever did pretentious lyrics is it? Ha ha.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

wire by 8 lengths... this is really no comparison.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

vic is right to point out that wires songs were so short. i think thats one of the things that makes wire far more interesting to me - they remade avant-rock to include reaaaaaally short songs, where it had been previously closely wedded to long-ass songs.

― peter smith (plsmith), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:23 (twenty-one years ago)

...and also were a genuine punk band in that they had no interest in playing rock and roll and no interest in developing musical "technique"

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:24 (twenty-one years ago)

But Peter, Television remade punk to include reaaaaally long songs!

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:25 (twenty-one years ago)

plus I mean their first three are astonishing, as is Colin Newman's first solo album at least, and lots of Wire's mid-period and very recent work is excellent.

― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

But Peter, Television remade punk to include reaaaaally long songs!

A very bad thing indeed.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i think they are too apples and oranges to make an especially meaningful comparison, i just happen to get more pleasure out of wire than television. though i do like television.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Television, definitely. I love every song on "Marquee Moon," (esp. if you count the expanded edition with "Little Johnny Jewel"), but there's plenty of songs I skip over on "Pink Flag."
I love "The 15th" off 154, though... but still, Television wins this one for me.

― Neb Reyob (Ben Boyer), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:30 (twenty-one years ago)

"But Peter, Television remade punk to include reaaaaally long songs!"

That unfortunately suck.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:31 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.deadbeat.dk/art_literature/REVIEWS/books/images/please.jpg

ZZZzzZz

― ¥¤±²£¢Ð¼æ®ª«¶Þ÷³¹ß½Ø×©§¾¿¥¤±²£¢Ð¼æ®ª«¶Þ÷³¹ß½Ø×©§¾¿¥¤±²£¢Ð¼æ®ª«¶Þ÷³¹ß½Ø×©§¾¿ (ex , Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh god yes. That book is borrrrrrrrrrrrrrring.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:33 (twenty-one years ago)

They're all on fuggin' heroin

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Say something BORING about the Velvet Underground

― ¥¤±²£¢Ð¼æ®ª«¶Þ÷³¹ß½Ø×©§¾¿¥¤±²£¢Ð¼æ®ª«¶Þ÷³¹ß½Ø×©§¾¿¥¤±²£¢Ð¼æ®ª«¶Þ÷³¹ß½Ø×©§¾¿ (ex , Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:34 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean, i like long songs.

also, i dont know if id consider either band punk. pink flag is unequivocally a punk album. i dont really think chairs missing is, though. and im sure 154 isnt.

― peter smith (plsmith), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

"A Touching Display" is around 7 minutes long

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

long songs, short songs.

abstract narratives, symbolist poetry.

guitar solos, no guitar solos.

i guess you can state a preference for one thing over the other thing, but really these are not evaluative categories. they are descriptive.

― captain obvious (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

i got the poetry/narratives thing reversed.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

and 20 of PF's 22 songs are under 3 minutes.

― peter smith (plsmith), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

When you go to Television's page on allmusic this is what you see:

Similar Artists: Wire

― artdamages (artdamages), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I like 154 and A-Z more than I like Marquee Moon. I don't think there's a Wire album with as much back-to-back great shit on it as MM though. Still, TV's one well known album vs Wire's whole gamut's not that fair a fight.

― Fergal (Ferg), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

So it's Wire's fault that Television's second album and all of Tom Verlaine's solo stuff is all shit?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

i think i say CM >= PF > MM > 154

― peter smith (plsmith), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Nah, just like, don't fuck with Wire

― Fergal (Ferg), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 17:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 20 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

5 great albums? which are the other two? (ok, maybe you're counting A-Z)

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Five, Umm let's see (in orderish)

Chairs Missing
154
Pink Flag
Document and Eyewitness
Send
--------------------------------
The Drill
The Ideal Copy
Wir - The first letter
A bell is a cup
--------------------------------
Manscape

Others fit around, I've prob forgot them....

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm surprised this is so one-sided! obviously wire have a much larger and more diverse body of work, so in terms of the amount of time people have spent listening to and enjoying their music, you'd expect them to win. but does everyone really dislike television that much? this 'their songs are too long man!' argument has to be some discredited old school punk bullshit by now, doesn't it?!

fwiw, i prob do prefer wire overall, but i still think Marquee Moon is a wonderful one-of-a-kind guitar soul record, and it pains me to have to choose anything over it.

― pete b. (pete b.), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Marque Moon better than Chairs Missing. *I think*

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

i guess, on reflection, i can't really make up my mind and don't care to.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:01 (twenty-one years ago)

My problem with Television isn't that their songs are too long, it's that their lead singer is irritating, the songs are pedantic and I couldn't care less about guitar solos (some of the guitar sounds are interesting and when other bands would use them later on decent music, I do like them.) IN FACT, no one has said they dislike Television because they wrote LONG SONGS.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:13 (twenty-one years ago)

pedantic?

http://www.jacksheldon.com/shrmainlogo.jpg

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:15 (twenty-one years ago)

IN FACT, no one has said they dislike Television because they wrote LONG SONGS.

uh, you're right. fair enough. and i agree that the singer is kinda annoying but jesus wire have some of the most irritating vocals ever and i love them too! also TV have great backing vocals. i don't think i know what a pedantic song is. and i don't normally care for guitar solos either but TV make me care!

― pete b. (pete b.), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I hate Van Halen, but I've hardly heard any Television. I remember hearing some at a friend's house once and finding it ho-hum.

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

It would have helpe if I'd read the thread title, of course.

Wire since I like a couple of their songs.

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Songs that make me think that someone failed freshman poetry are pedantic. And to be fair if the vocals were better I wouldn't care what Verlaine was singing about, also I like Colin Newman's vocals, also he doesn't just sound like me with a head cold. . . so really it comes down to vocals and not caring about the sorts of things which are viewed as being Television's strengths--like guitar solos.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:40 (twenty-one years ago)

i agree that the vocals are a problem, as are the lyrics (sometimes).

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:41 (twenty-one years ago)

that was a thoughtful word to use, alex, it reminded me that there are several connotations to "pedantic."

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:42 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't really know what any Television songs are 'about,' except Venus, which i guess is a love song, and I think it's a pretty one.

― pete b. (pete b.), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark Grout, I haven't listened to "Send" enough to judge, but "Document and Eyewitness," at least what I remember about it (sold it long ago), is a piece of shit. Please defend it, I wasn't aware anyone liked it.

― 4kflka, Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I got an A in Frosh poetry mo-fo!

― Theresa Stern, Thursday, 1 July 2004 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Television, because I owned Pink Flag for about a month and listened to it 3 times and then sold it back because it was really boring.

― David Allen (David Allen), Thursday, 1 July 2004 03:16 (twenty-one years ago)

you shoulda held on to it

― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 1 July 2004 03:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Wait, you found "Reuters" to be boring???

(Joke. I actually like "Reuters.")

― Tim Ellison, Thursday, 1 July 2004 03:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Television, because I owned Pink Flag for about a month and listened to it 3 times and then sold it back because it was really boring.
-- David Allen (Davidalle...), July 1st, 2004.

:-(

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 1 July 2004 07:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I defend Doc and Eye.

At least one 'side' is a straightforward representation of a Wire gig. Supporting Roxy Music i believe.

The gig that descends into riot, is one of those 'moments'.

I thought it bad when they added an excerpt of 12XU that they played to pacify the audience. You played it for them so play it for us. The snippet of "i don't have to go to the south pole to know it's cold" is condescending in the extreme. (The fullversion is on "Turns and Strokes" and the condescension to the audience is palpable and should definately have been on Doc and Eye).

There. OK?

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 1 July 2004 08:05 (twenty-one years ago)

both very good bands

i am rather taken aback by verlaine's lyrics being described as 'failed freshman poetry' and a 'problem'. it would be good to know what you think constitute truly great lyrics though so i can a. check them out or b. discard your opinions (again)

― dave amos, Thursday, 1 July 2004 08:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Reasons why I like Document and Eyewitness

It’s probably more interesting from the point of view of understand the why? what? and when? of Wire, rather than a jolly listen of an afternoon. That doesn't have to be a bad thing.

It’s a document of Wire at their most wilful and bloody-minded. I would argue it was never intended to be thought of as a Wire album in the more conventional sense.

The stuff from the Notre Dame show rather than the Electric Ballroom is like a lost 4th EMI album – albeit a very short one.

The sleevenotes: “Vocalist attacks gas stove”.

Witness to the Fact is really good.

The bonus tracks (Our Swimmer and Midnight Banhof Café) aren’t bad either

One other thing ... I've never understood the obsession with Pink Flag, to be honest. Easily the poorest Mk 1 Wire album, if you ask me. In fact, I've just worked it out and I think it's probably my 8th favourite Wire album.

― coco, Thursday, 1 July 2004 08:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I forgot "Behind the Curtain". Pre Pink Flag stuff, tracks that fell between albums that they didn't return to, and "Live at the Roxy".

Not that I'm a completeist or nuttin?

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 1 July 2004 08:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Guess I need to hear it again (good thing that, as it turns out, I never sold it). All I remember is extremely poorly-recorded live stuff, and, I thought, a fair amount of pre-Dome noise? Maybe it was the disappointment, two records of what turned out to be not what I expected... I was surprised to see it described as a "great album" rather than as an potentially interesting miscellanae for Wire fans.

― 4kflka, Thursday, 1 July 2004 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

The album you're missing is 'A Bell Is A Cup... Until It Is Struck', which is an absolute classic.

― Sasha (sgh), Friday, 2 July 2004 01:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Thing is, I like Dome ...

anyway, to be self-indulgent for a minute, at this exact moment, I'd order them like this ...

The Ideal Copy (+Snakedrill)
154
Send
Chairs Missing
The Drill
The First Letter (Wir)
It’s Beginning To and Back Again
A Bell Is A Cup ...
Pink Flag
Document and Eyewitness
Manscape
Turn and Strokes

― coco, Friday, 2 July 2004 08:38 (twenty-one years ago)

five years pass...

Wire

― admrl, Friday, 18 June 2010 17:14 (sixteen years ago)

I had a fling with Television and Verlaine and Lloyd's solo work, there is much to love and it will always be in my heart.

But Wire owns my soul completely.

― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Friday, 18 June 2010 17:36 (sixteen years ago)

Television (though I love Wire too).

― tylerw, Friday, 18 June 2010 17:37 (sixteen years ago)

both are mediocre crap bands that happened to be highly influential. both can burn in hell as far as I'm concerned.

― Vanilla Douche (res), Friday, 18 June 2010 18:42 (sixteen years ago)

lol

― tylerw, Friday, 18 June 2010 18:47 (sixteen years ago)

I like a much higher percentage of Television, so - them.

― ImprovSpirit, Friday, 18 June 2010 19:23 (sixteen years ago)

Wire. Television, as great as they were, never came up with anything as brilliant as "12XU."

― Alex in NYC, Friday, 18 June 2010 19:34 (sixteen years ago)

wirrrrrrrrrrrrrrre

― LOS CATIOS (latebloomer), Friday, 18 June 2010 20:28 (sixteen years ago)

chairs missing is the best album either of them ever did. "marquee moon"'s the best song

― kamerad, Friday, 18 June 2010 20:37 (sixteen years ago)

Debuts are pretty much even, and deserve everything good said about them and then some. But after that, it's all Wire.

― kornrulez6969, Friday, 18 June 2010 21:33 (sixteen years ago)

this may have been the first thread i started on here, right after i graduated college and joined the "WORK FORCE"

― 69, Friday, 18 June 2010 21:52 (sixteen years ago)

both good WORK FORCE bands imo

― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Friday, 18 June 2010 21:53 (sixteen years ago)

they reliably brighten a shitty commute

― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Friday, 18 June 2010 21:54 (sixteen years ago)

im feeling so strongly wire these days -- esp how fuckin hard "reuters" and "pink flag" and "from the nursery" kick

― 69, Friday, 18 June 2010 22:25 (sixteen years ago)

television and me went out together big time. now i feel like it's time for me and wire.

― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Friday, 18 June 2010 22:35 (sixteen years ago)

wire!

― scott seward, Friday, 18 June 2010 22:41 (sixteen years ago)

Television!

xpost!

― Sundar, Friday, 18 June 2010 22:52 (sixteen years ago)

i was listening to a Television bootleg from 1975 yesterday and they were straight up chooglin' CCR-style at some points! Did Wire ever choogle?!

― tylerw, Friday, 18 June 2010 22:55 (sixteen years ago)

More than any other album, Marquee Moon might epitomize what I look for most in rock music. It's the sound of a band connecting on such a high level, with beautiful (and full-bodied and beautiful-sounding) guitar melodies that never verge on excess even at their most extended. Every part sounds so clear and integral.

― Sundar, Friday, 18 June 2010 23:33 (sixteen years ago)

What a depressing thread. Ordinarily intelligent people trash-talking either band -- madness I say! I'm left with too much ick to choose, and will just play the fuck out of all of their great albums instead (and that includes Adventure).

― Fastnbulbous, Friday, 18 June 2010 23:45 (sixteen years ago)

these are just about the most tasteful bands ever, at least after vu

wire, probably

only recently got the third tv album

― nakhchivan, Friday, 18 June 2010 23:58 (sixteen years ago)

first i am just going to point out that i don't see the grounds for comparison in these bands. wire is punk as fuck, and television to me is straight-up rock, almost classic rock. i don't hear the punk sound at all.

i've only listened to MM by television; by wire i've heard the first three, and then a bell is a cup, which sucks; i have little faith that anything after 154 is any good, while i have it on good word that all of television's albums are good. on these grounds, television win because they didn't start making bad music.

but no, my vote is for wire. i've started to lose a bit of my interest in MM; i've listened to it 17 times (on my computer), according to winamp, and my friend told me about it like am month, maybe a month and a half ago? i've listened to pink flag and chairs missing 17 times in ONE DAY, and it hasn't worn on me one bit.

oh man, wire. they are so good! television is great, but wire beats the shit out of them, i'm sorry.

― hey whatsup (marc iv), Saturday, 19 June 2010 01:33 (sixteen years ago)

and then a bell is a cup, which sucks

It's not even close to sucking. Wire has never released anything that's sucked all the way through, though much of "Manscape" and "The First Letter" are weak. But, really, when you compare the output of a band that's existed for over 30 years to one that shown bright for a much shorter period of time, the latter usually looks better.

― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Saturday, 19 June 2010 02:27 (sixteen years ago)

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