Waking Up To Us (B&S)

Marx & Engels != pinkos but Reds, silly.

The cover art is dire. Although the back cover is pretty tasty, to be honest. I know that Peter Miller agrees with me.

I've listened to the record about three times so far.I think it's a vast improvement on the last two dreadful singles, but it's still a bit of a letdown. Despite the best efforts of Mike Hurst, the highlight is the Woody Allen interlude on I Love My Car. In my opinion the only road forward is for them to become the world's first eight-piece synth duo.

Incidentally, when you all realised this at the time of the last LP, did you feel as guilty as I do now?

Sarah, I think plain old boredom may play a part. For the last two or three years I've been listening to a lot of soul and reggae compilations and now they just bore me. Obviously they haven't got any worse, it's just me.

What is NYLPM? What is THE STREETS?

BTW, the vocals on WUTU sound odd, kind of clipped in a calypso stylee. Good thing or bad?

Boredom is probably also playing a part Pete, I don't listen to the rest of their AHEM BACK CATALOGUE as much as I used to do - back catalogues = rockist! - but comparing it to todays B&S it practically seems like amazing sonic innovation compared to the hoary E-Z 60s blandless of the latest single, at least. Legal Man = ridiculous but this one is on the level of a Hermans Hermits b-side!

And yes, when I realised this above I did actually feel guilty. But I think that was due to personal involvement with people who were running resources concerned with Belle & Sebastian and the whole "Club" thing. I'd dedicated a hell of a lot to that band, gawd, it sounds like a messy breakup but perhaps it's more of a dreary old fizzle out. Bastards!

Pinefox's alternative possibility theory = B&S have *never* been that good, but once upon a time it suited some of us to agree to kid ourselves that they were; and now, for whatever reasons, the agreement is falling apart - perhaps is no longer useful / helpful / necessary.

You should write for NYLPM btw.

'Guilty' = illogical Pinefox, I can't really defend it. I think it's because I associated my identity with being a Belle & Sebastian fan for along time - and there's also that feeling that if you love a band you stick by them: something which I SHUN UTTERLY. Still, I end up feeling guilty for realising... actually... they've gorn crap. You feel "disloyal". PISH TO ME says I. I think also the discourse and analysis about Belle & Sebastian has turned me off also and you find yourself getting sharp and testy about it. Especially when you are into this "Club" if you will, of Belle & Sebastian fans and then it turns hurtful and nasty and you find yourself hating something you were part of for so long.

There's a problem with reevaluation: the current releases are dragging the past down with them. It's interesting that Mrs. Welthorpe mentions Tigermilk cos it's easy to reinterpret that as part of the tweeness with which no one wants to be associated anymore. So it's clear that for central members of the Club, the Club had a lot of momentum and influenced the way in which songs were received. It was a MOVEMENT!

Yeah, I can sense something revolutionary in the way I first heard Tigermilk, on a tape in London, then at one of the listening booths at the Gibert Jeune in the Latin Quarter. Not that fans don't circulate bootleg copies or take advantage of flashy retail conveniences. It was just the sense of expectation among fans, without the interference of the media, by the time of the rerelease that seemed to me unprecedented.

I don't think I contributed to the C/D/S/D threads, so here: Electronic Renaissance, I Could Be Dreaming, My Wandering Days Are Over, all of If You're Feeling Sinister, all of the three eps, It Could Have Been A Brilliant Career, Sleep The Clock Around, Ease Your Feet In The Sea, A Summer Wasting, The Boy With The Arab Strap, Slow Graffiti, The Model, Women's Realm, There's Too Much Love, The Loneliness Of A Middle Distance Runner (not the ep version), and that scratchy version of Lord Anthony.

The first five songs on The Boy With The Arab Strap are really strong. I'm even including Isobel's song; listening to them straight through has that effect.

>>> In an odd way, I'm reminded of Lester Bangs: "We will never agree on anything like we agreed on Tigermilk/IYFS".

This is terrific - though remember, *I* didn't really agree. I can't stand agreeing with that many people at once.

>>> A great deal of the charm of the community that was established around this time, for me, was its diversity - far from the tweetard stereotype of legend, they brought together a) ageing C-86ers (who had gone on to their own adventures in electronica, reggae, country etc etc)

Hm... and what was your adventure?

The other audience types you mention, I'm not sure about. You may be rather exaggerating the diversity. The one real aspect of diversity where I think you're on the money is re. age. There was some sense of different generations being involved - and most particularly (and for some, tediously), of old Smiths fans like you and me having a last chance to come out of the woodwork.

>>> I think all interesting pop moments create a new kind of audience in this way, and inevitably they splinter off into their constituent elements

They do? Then why did the elements come together in the first place, if they were already clearly defined? Or: *did* they really come together? Or just coexist - ie. different people who at one time liked the same thing?

I don't know, the B&S thing is problematic for me... it always felt a bit like someone else's club, when it was at its height (which is probably inevitable - see above).

>>> (just like punk separated into its political, art and dressing up wings in RAR, newpop and goth). In a funny way, this is reflected on the last lp, degenerating into daft essays and pastiches in Northern Soul, Soft Rock, Lee Hazlewood etc etc. Stuff like WUTU is the increasingly soggy soft centre of a band who'd rather pursue solo projects. The question is, I suppose, whether the diaspora of their audience leads to entropy (ie tomcamera & paulinobscura), fierce, fragile efflorescences of burn-up (the clientele) or fresh formations (cf stereolab, st etienne, the manics arising from the ashes of c86 culture). I wonder.

This is brilliantly put - we need more such writing. I'm not really clear on the description of the Clientele, though; and not too sure at all, actually, on the idea of your C86 fresh formations - none of which I particularly like, and (more to the point) none of which has an obvious relation to C86 (assuming we can agree what that was).

I don't know, Ed - some of your points seem to go strange places. But the questions you're asking are the right ones - you've got the big picture as few others have.

Having met a lot of these people, yeah, I do like them, but frankly it was embarrassing, rather than life-affirming all-embracing wonderfulness like some people seem to think. Although, that said, I was overjoyed when they won the Brit, and I bought Legal Man without even liking it that much just to try and get them up the charts (one record, yeah, that'll make the difference), and did feel bad when I started to not get into their records.

But what are bands supposed to do? I'm all for the destruction of groups/people after they reach their greatest heights, but a)this is hard to judge, and b)um, I'm sure they wouldn't like it. For the wibbling indie kids there is new, fresh wibbling indie all the time- it's not that hard to move on, y'know...

Erm... I think the journey is more important than the destination for B&S, so the fact that the songs by The Other Seven aren't very good is less important than the fact they exist at all, which they wouldn't if it weren't for encouragement, or whatever, from The Leader. Likewise string arrangments and increasingly slick 'sixties inflections'. Unfortunately this theory leaves the listener in limboland.

The gratuitously strewn exclamation marks that sprinkled the early days no longer seem appropriate, but I don't think they should break up. I think this is a good record, it just doesn't seem very earth shattering.

Another reason I feel guilty is for thinking everyone was mental for liking the last two albums less than the others. I still think they're better, but I can now see why people might think otherwise. Re: The Duke's opinions.

Soft rock has always been part of it, hasn't it?

Edna, what is RAR? Also, I think I may have gone Afrobeat, you left that out of your list. 'Nigeria 70' deserves many exclamation marks.

because the Club was something I never felt a part of and never wanted to be a real part of- to me, and to many people, it looked like the easiest target for piss-taking ever. A bunch of namby-pamby bedwetting nouveau Smiths kids with teddy bears, hair-slides and glitter.

Well by that characterisation, I was never part of it either. And yet someone like Youn would insist that I was. It's a funny old game.

In an odd way, I'm reminded of Lester Bangs: "We will never agree on anything like we agreed on Tigermilk/IYFS"

Except did we? Ever since I got a hissy tape of Tigermilk I was a bit disappointed with it, compared with IYFS. Some great stuff on there, but too much nonsense about being 'kinda lonely' on the outro of 'My Wandering Days Are Over'; crappy kitchenette/caravanette/Hull lines on the reedy/weedy 'Mary Jo'; embarrassing "to read and to see" line on 'We Rule the School' (which pushes the twee line too far in the first place) and a weak idea stretched to breaking point on 'You're Just a Baby'. And Edna conveniently forgets all the 'Electronic Renaissance' arguments.

And I don't think IYFS is perfect either, cause I never gave two hoots for enemy ammunition song 'Judy and the Dream of Horses'. Oh, and Peter, despite its greater unevenness, I think I ended up preferring 'The Boy With The Arab Strap' to 'If You're Feeling Sinister'. So you're not alone there.

Observing the B+S phenomenon from a considerable distance, it seemed to me that this is exactly it - a last Hurrah for some old Smiths fans who are unable to move on. An affirmation that the mad, bad, dangerous world of late 90's techno/R+B/hip-hop wasn't really happening after all. Pretty sad. Also, I can't image why a Smiths fan would be satisfied with B+S's pale slop. Shouldn't Smiths fanship have encouraged investigation of some of Morrissey's '60's influences, maybe some of Marr's funk/soul/rock interests, other Manc/Moz associates (Ludus, Devoto) or even better - take a look at the stuff Morrissey hated - disco, reggae.

Maybe the disappointment with the latest releases means that people are coming belately to their senses about B+S. But as B+S (beans and sausages?) recede, I fear that another similar band will seize the moment to take hold of the B+S consituency. Is this the legacy of the Smiths - a series of successively duller, more twee guitar bands who are hailed as the next big thing every five years?

Are the majority of B&S fans set against hip-hop etc.? I'm not sure. A significant minority are, but I think your point is too generalised.

(yeah sorry Mark S for using the i-word but I couldnt think of a better one)

You're assuming that people who listened to Belle & Sebastian in the late 90s merely listened to them, and Hurrah! records? TBH I hadn't expected this from you Dr. C, you've pretty much been on the money before now but this is just bullshit. Of course I'm talking then, but Belle & Sebastian fans opened me up to SO much more than things like cockfarming Hefner and Camera Obscura, BMX Bandits and the like. And what I had been listening to when I was getting into B&S was yer Pulps/Manics and Welsh nonsense (mmmm Datblygu, yummy Melys, Gorkys before Gorky 5) but woosh: B&S - whole new wurlde. ACE. I admit it wasn't exactly "techno/RnB/hip hop but what the fcuk is wrong with THAT? My taste in music isn't polarised in the way I'd like to "affirm things don't happen" (sheesh) and I also take AFFRONT (yea sire!) of yr inherent value assumption that techno/hiphop whatevah is intrinsically "worth more" (get you to a rockist convention) than Belle & Sebastians form of "indie". I see this in so many places and it's shit reverse snobbery.

Incidentally, I hate the bloody Smiths but we'll get into that little bugbear l8TXoR. And TBH I don't think sonically, B&S sound much like the Smiffs. At least not much like my BEST OF THE SMITHS PART WHO GIVES A COCKFARMER.

> moment to take hold of the B+S consituency. Is this the legacy of > the Smiths - a series of successively duller, more twee guitar bands > who are hailed as the next big thing every five years?

I think it depends on demand? I've seen wibblers like Hefner and Camera Obscura (can't be arsed thinking of any others, sorry) become a lot more popular than I would have given them credit for, and the majority of the fans = people who I know from being Belle & Sebastian fans. I just can't see the attraction. I think any band with a big "cult" appeal (kill me) spawn not so much conscious imitators but people who are "inspired" - howevah to me it just inspires me to fcuk off and listen to something a lot better (perhaps THE STREETS!). It's a case of you get what you deserve, if you wanted what I would call wibbling twee crap from B&S, then you'll get it and yer welcome to it. You are of course wrong but what can I say. If you want p!o!p! - they had it in spades. And the people who like their music with a bit of p!o!p! might move on, those who don't can stick with listening to Legal Mang or whatevah - I can't do it. I'm not saying that people who like Camera Obscura (and there's a hell of a lot of them and I'm friends with some of them) are wibbling lovers of twee crap, just that I think it's a case of looking for different things in music. Digging myself into a hole? Possibly.

And the less worthiness given to 60s soul, the better. History's not important, as someone once said. Especially not when you can't SEE BLOODY PAST IT, you twats. And provoke me into going on. And on. SHUT UP!

Just add this: at the time I got into B&S I was fucking fed up of indie music, and foresaw myself buying only dance music, hip hop and old records from then on. I HATED, say, Gene for their Smiths-a-like dross. I had fondness for some of the Sarah records I assume you despise, but that's a red herring really. I didn't see B&S as being part of that and I can completely understand someone hating the Fieldmice and loving Belle & Sebastian. I do identify something in B&S in common with the Smiths but the differences are so vast that it's not really helpful for them to be even brought up. Yes, most people of my generation who like B&S were avid Smiths fans but then again virtually all my friends were avid Smiths fans (before I knew them - I didn't meet them at some convention!).

As for your thing about other music - what? You really think we were all just sitting around listening to weedy indie music, waiting for another Smiths? Well, no. But then I was buying Todd Terry and Public Enemy records at the height of my Smiths obsession, so maybe I'm a crazy exception. But I doubt it. And seeing as you don't see them as being like the Smiths at all, what can you mean anyway? AH - you must be positing this band of Smiths fans who didn't 'really understand' what they were about at all, who have been exposed as fakes by their appreciation of B&S.

>>> An affirmation that the mad, bad, dangerous world of late 90's techno/R+B/hip-hop wasn't really happening after all. Pretty sad.

made me angry. Probably you can see why. But then I saw that it had made everyone else angry too, so I don't feel angry anymore - they've done it for me.

'Knowing that X is happening' != 'Liking X'. Presumably you can 'affirm' that rail privatization has Really Happened, but I wouldn't accuse you of endorsing it.

If we were to segment the B+S fanbase, I believe that there would be a significant proportion of people doing precisely this. But clearly not you, Nick. Or the others. Fine.

Ned, Kate the Saint, Dr C, and now me - I am thinking of forming the Anti-Twee Faction! - anyone want to read the manifesto?

[Market research to find out about twee types in London = Track & Field, and Track & Field website]

Seriously I think a lot of music listeners have this kind of Messianic thing - the number of hip-hop heads who talk abut De La Soul or A Tribe Called Quest (or more mainstreamly 2Pac), soul fans leaping on Macy Gray/Angie Stone as the returnoftruesoul, the way the whole US rockpress is hooked on '91, the way a lot of the UK rockpress wants it to be '77 again, the not-as-good-as-Shoomism of the dance scene. It's not surprising this tendency exists in indie too - the question is, did it dominate? Personal experience - and I came to B & S fandom with exactly Dr C's thesis - suggests it didn't.

Said photo is not in the Cd booklet, I've just had a look. It's in the cassette - 1984, by Jove! I wonder if it's worth anyhting? It has that decadent 'strawberry wine' coloured lead in tape.

No, B&S are more Smurfs than Smiths.

I'm really offended by music that doesn't show an awareness of the improved marketing of so-called world music. Duh!

Actually the Doc has no reason why anyone should *not* do this. He thinks that everyone must be big into TechnoHipHouseGarageBlah because "It's Happening". The Rational is the Real? If you don't accept this a priori claim, then the doc's argument - rather like me, no doubt - has nowhere to go.

By the way, I don't think anyone who really loves the Smiths wants or wanted *another* Smiths - that would probably be an impossibility, as 15 years of imitators have arguably shown. People who like a great band needn't hang around waiting for the *next* one - much more obviously, they spend their time listening to the *old* one.

But Edna and Ewing are both right here - it's not that B&S, musically = the Smiths, it's that the Smiths-Related Social Meaning of B&S = "New Opportunity for Pop Interaction, with some reference to the Smiths, depending on how important they are or were to you".

I COME TO BURY B&S NOT TO PRAISE THEM!

Tom, No. If by '1981' you mean that I'm hankering after a golden age of post-punk or something, absolutely not. I DO talk about this period a lot on ILM, but if you're suggesting that I've taken little interest in anything since then you're wrong.

**You're assuming that people who listened to Belle & Sebastian in the late 90s merely listened to them, and Hurrah! records.**

Sarah, I didn't mean Hurrah! the band. I meant "a last hurrah". But anyway, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that IN MY EXPERIENCE a lot of the B+S fan base (but obviously not you lot) were old Smiths fans who jumped upon the B+S bandwagon. Pinefox's comment (**..old Smiths fans like you and me having a last chance to come out of the woodwork**) seemed to be close to phenomenon which I'd recognized. I know quite a few people to whom this applies. Everyone I met through them seemed to like a small number of similar bands Smiths, James, Go- Betweens, Gene and then B+S. Oh and gawdhelpus, The Wedding Present. Hence my comments.OBVIOUSLY I ACCEPT THAT THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU LOT, as you've all been quick to point out, or to many others. I still maintain that they're a significant part of the B+S fanbase.

**and I also take AFFRONT (yea sire!) of yr inherent value assumption that techno/hiphop whatevah is intrinsically "worth more" (get you to a rockist convention) than Belle & Sebastians form of "indie".

I didn't say that Sarah, although I see how you could have read it into my post. It's not MY value assumption - I'm not much interested in hip-hop for example - but an attempt to perhaps caricature some values that I'd seen in the B+S fans I'd encountered.

**He thinks that everyone must be big into TechnoHipHouseGarageBlah because "It's Happening"**

PF - No I don't, and you know it. I'm hardly at the cutting edge of that. But if I had a quid for everytime I've heard comments along the lines of "this bloody dance music these days is crap" from old-school indie types I'd be loaded. Again - IN MY EXPERIENCE there's a reluctance to engage in much of anything post-Smiths in a lot of people I've met. Not everyone as catholic tastes as the majority of ILM posters. You/we are in a minority.

This has been so completely refuted above, I hardly feel the need to comment, *but*...

Part of the reason B&S meant so much to me in 96/97 (*before* I knew there was such a thing as the Sinister list, *before* I saw them live and met my future wife, *before* the Blue Soda socials and the Primrose Hill football marathons) is precisely because I *had* 'moved on', and didn't imagine sensitive boy-vocal guitar jangle would *ever* be my bag again. It was The Boredoms, Juan Atkins, Tricky, Omni Trio and Ligeti for me back then. For this songwriterly crew of shambliness to so completely win me over was such a shock, I became obsessed with the buggers.

It's since become impossible to separate the achievements of the band from the extraordinary collection of fans that I met when I moved to London in '98... my B&S experience became less to do with the absolute quality of the records (though I still think "Strap" is terrific). It wasn't any kind of general reintroduction into delicate guitar-pop either - I think most of the bands who've emerged in the wake of B&S are terrible. They have/had something that these chancers will never come close to.

I'm just trying to prevent the thread dying gracefully, I think WUTU's fantastic now. Sometimes my own reactions are hard to phantom.

Didn't the Housemartins all sleep in the same bed? No wonder there was so much comradeship on display. And is it true that Paul Heaton was on Question Time, or is Mo-Jo having a laff?

I've now actually sat down and listened to the new single, twice. I think it has the best strike-rate of any release of new B&S material in three years. It has Murdoch all over it, which is VITAL. The closing song mentions the town I grew up in; it's clearly a fiction, so, fictionally, I'm going to say that I know her and her name is Kathryn.

We were waiting for you. To be fair, there's only a tiny fragment of melody which calls to mind JH's big Martian hit. Perhaps they should've called it "Forever Changes Autumn". Heh-heh.

But first, can we not club together and hire a winsome, tactful, observant research assistant, learned in the ways of Google and, er, perhaps even less tasking methods, to place in the employ of the Greatest Living Englishman?

Starry Sarah: "Marx and Engels seemed to WIBBLE, a reference to "a girl who reads M&E" at the end of the song seemed to be there just for... show."
GLE: "what 'M&E' is, I have no idea"

Clue: there are as many as ten words between baffling cryptogram and startling solution.

but this was just the most pinefoxey pinefoxing i had evah seen: i thought it deserved a fancy set-up to celebrate it

anyway he will be bigged up royally when i expand on my b&s thoughts later this week next week sometime er yeah soon

i am on drugs please give generously

Is this Jools thing repeated?

(what i think already: "ill-rehearsed twee- prog, in a good way")

From Peel, the breathy Isobel one is another dull breathy Isobel thing. The rave-up Northern Soul one sounds like a 1960s cartoon band or Up With People or some other such nonsense. (Actually, that's not fair, I quite like "Sugar, Sugar")

However, the one about the Go-Betweens is excellent! I fear, though, that this is a ha-ha throwaway for the radio, even though it posseses more wit and charm than most anything they've done in years. The violin bit in the middle is lovely, too. The "Technique" one isn't too shabby, either. Nothing to demand devotion, but those last two are enough to remind me of when "Struan" was stamped on all of the songs in big, lovely letters rather than "compromise" and "pastiche."

let's just say that pinefox's alternative poss theory ABOVE combines with THIS (= pinefox in feb on Orange Juice) — “Now, asking fans why they like something can be a red herring, an unfair question. Love may be a thing that we can't fully explain to ourselves, let alone to others: and if we feel it sincerely and strongly, we may not want to bother trying to justify it to another, especially as - who knows? - we may feel our love slipping away from us in our inept bids at justification. So I sympathize with fans who don't want to explain why they're fans: perhaps they can see that there is no truly final vocabulary here, no ultimate justification beyond a passion which will do for now” — to produce the jump-off for a brillt theory re B&S

My contribution is that it's because B&S are deliberately austere recessive as regards the things Dr.C claims they are "affirming their dislike of" (or whatever he said), and that these things (beats, glamour, noise, whatever) represent aspects of music that all of us somewhat hanker for or expect in SOME form (even if not always in the form eg hip-hop presents them), that the BS audience over-compensate and supply alternatives themselves: except in this new case/new interweb-connected situation, one of the alternatives is also the method of the evolution of the alternatives, eg the mutually inter-communicating discussion group

Final point, to expand on Edna's claim re conglomerate audiences: when they dissipate again, they have nevertheless changed one another.

(Sorry, this is join-the-dots time)

b&s = muggletonians heh

I guess punk ought to have been similar, but (to me at least) wasn't. The bands and music seemed to share equal billing to the thrill of getting together. Maybe a hangover of the rock 'cult of personality', in other words, we didn't know how to participate without focusing on the lead singer or guitarist. (This in direct contradiction to what I just said above re: N. Soul) That said, I wasn't in London in 76/77 and N. Lincs was as ever off the pace in all things yoof cultural.

Who is this Hayward geezer that Edna is on about?

Have to admit that - after all this B*S-bashing - seeing the song performed on TV - catchy, flowing, dramatic - has actually made me feel quite *keen* on it. I'm even thinking of *buying* it.

Mark S need not explain his mysterious 'GLE' tag (how odd - that he should say this just when GH's death had got me thinking that Macca must be the GLE), but must certainly reuse it. Sporadically and surprisingly, if necessary.

Steady M: if I'd known it would really mean anything to you to hear a song that mentioned Wallasey, then I would have made the extra effort to finish my country song 'Wallasey' in June. But darn it, it's too late now.

2. I LOVE MY CAR: musical richness, yes, and I like the tint of Ray Davies in the voice - but at the end of the day, I think it's time to park this car and get the band out of the garage.

3. MARX AND ENGELS: is a revelation. Repeated listens have only spurred more repeated listens. Yes, lyrically, it's Old B&S - very standard stuff; but I'm hardly the one to complain about people doing the same old thing. It's astonishingly catchy; the music sounds lush; the lyric has enough going on without overdoing it (but - Riot Grrl? hm, leave it out); the vocal is high-class. The coda is imaginative. The guitar parts are neat and sweet. The Marxian 2nd-vocal actually works tremendously. This is, I think, an outstanding pop track. It's a C-side.

It's POSSIBLY THE BEST TRACK EVER TO APPEAR ON A BELLE AND SEBASTIAN SINGLE.

as an aside: Marx & Engels is quite an old song, being mentioned in early 99 as a track to appear on their (not very)-forthcoming next album.

The song Marx and Engels was demo-ed in '98, might even have been written earlier. I don't know how this fact affects its being seen as heralding Stuart's return to form.

The mannered vocal delivery on IWUTU didn't remind me of Arthurly - (now that my attention has been drawn to the comparison I can see how one could think that, but still don't buy it. Arthur does it to sound cool). He (Stuart) sounds like he wants to enunciate every syllable - for clarity? He sings it in a similar style on the 2 live recordings of the song that I have heard. Might that be because the lyric is more personal than most?

How big is that arse that likes to be kissed by men?

I only stumbled across this thread tonight & have necessarily skimmed it a bit, but have been disappointed not to find myself included in any of the generalisations of B&S fans. Maybe I will have to start my own.

All 3 songs on the single work for me. Lack of objectivity in respect of SM's songwriting will clearly feature in the characterisation of this particular fan.

Steady now. Isobel's waffle mid-song on Jools the riposte to SM's put-down? Or are we reading too much into this? Christ, I bet the Sinister list's going crazy-ape bonkers on all-fours for this interpretation.

Info that M&E was written that early backs up my intuitive reaction, I think, ie: it's really grate (and in some ways is like Old B&S - though I wouldn't want to press that point in terms of sound, as against song).

Relevant compare and contrast (cos both grate B-sides, far apart in time): 'Photo Jenny' vs 'Marx & Engels'.

I'll have to watch the Later ... appearance again to remind myself of the actual words, but after the last line of Isobel's spoken word part is delivered with striking vehemence SM seemed to turn around with a curious expression of mild surprise & amusement.

Your theory is terribly provocative, almost too good to be true.

"Danger now..."

This town (?) blah blah [swamped by strings] Blah blah for someone else But I'll meet someone (new/here) And he won't be rich And he won't be mad Just as long as it's not you

My first reaction was that they had something in common with The Band of Holy Joy, of all things. No idea what, though?

Yes, Marx & Engels = possible false dawn, given age. Still terrific, however. I'm WUTU is better than I first thought, but has some awful moments on record. I Love My Car sounded better live, but I still favour it as an instrumental.

In answer to Sarah's original question - no. Packing it in would be a bad move right now. Until fundamental proof arrives that Murdoch has LOST IT, there is still room for B&S.

I also woke up in a cold sweat with the sudden realisation that everything that's missing from this record was probably everything that Stuart D contributed, ie: snarling aggression, rough edges, cavalier attitude to sound quality, dogbreath.

My life's a ruin.

I was thinking this too the other day. I think Stuart MMMM has been swearing more lately in an attempt to compensate.

Tim - have you been at the liquid cocaine and vodka jelly again?