beatin' up on Morrissey

This then became a bit of a ritual at Morrissey shows for a few years afterwards before eventually descending into tawdry cliche.

WHY YES I'M A HUGE FAN THANKS FOR ASKING.

He wouldn't either. I seem to remember him saying it made him sound like a racehorse.

Omar, this is the nicest thing you've ever said about him. When did you become ambiguous about him? What brought on the change?

Nick was too chickenshit to go up to Neil Tennant (but kept glancing over nervously) until I went over. Once we were gabbing away he didn't stay back for long. Like 60 seconds, basically...

And here is something Nicholas didn't know: NT thought he was GAY. But I put him (cough) straight on that issue when we were looking at some weird architectural French art.

I heard this a while ago too. Isn't it supposed to be called 'Irish Blood, English Heart' or something hilarious like that?

[New Statesman]

Secret history
Daniel Trilling
Published 13 March 2008

The British pop Establishment has shown a long-standing resistance to black musical influence

"Reggae is vile," the former Smiths singer Morrissey once infamously declared. The principal character in Tippa Irie's 1985 song "Complain Neighbour", now re-released on the compilation An England Story, would have agreed. Tippa Irie, one of the UK's first home-grown reggae MCs, recounts the experience of a young black family living next door to a man who hates them and their bass-heavy music.
Over a backing track that sits somewhere between Jamaican dancehall and the old theme tune to Grange Hill, Tippa Irie switches from patois to a cockney twang as he parodies the man who sits at home "watching Coronation Street and da East-end-ah" after throwing a brick through his neighbours' window. Not only is it furious, funny and celebratory, it's a sharp metaphor for the resistance white mainstream pop has shown to black music in the UK.
The fast-talking ragga MCs, loud-mouthed rappers and teenage grime upstarts featured on An England Story, which traces the influence of Caribbean MC culture through the past 25 years, have been a driving musical force over the past few decades. From the late Seventies, British-based musicians like Tippa Irie and Papa Levi, whose 1984 "My God My King" features on the album, began developing their own take on Jamaican sound-system culture, in which DJs would improvise lyrics, or "toast", over records they were playing. Its development was similar to, but separate from, that of hip-hop in the US. The British MCs developed their own "fast chat" rapping style and wrote lyrics that reflected the experience of "English upbringing, background Caribbean", as the rapper Tricky once put it.
The tracks from this early period don't sound all that different from Jamaican reggae, but by the end of the Eighties, a wholly unique style had developed. The dancehall genre known as ragga, composed on cheap electronic synthesisers, was quick and easy to produce, which meant that British MCs and producers soon exploded in numbers and made it their own. General Levy's "Champagne Body" is an exhilarating example, his rapid-fire vocals skipping over a basic but infectious rhythm. And if "bling" is everywhere in today's pop culture, it's got nothing on Glamma Kid, who took self-aggrandisement to surreal levels on tracks such as 1995's "Fashion Magazine".
MC culture in the UK was an outward-looking movement that took on influences from and inspired other cultures. The vocal inflections of ragga found their way into rave music via jungle and drum'n'bass. General Levy later had a number-one hit in 1994 with the jungle act M-Beat, and the Birmingham-born Apache Indian mixed ragga with Indian bhangra music (there are nods to these styles on An England Story in "Ruffneck" by Navigator and the Freestylers and in Ty and Roots Manuva's "So U Want More?").
The early Nineties are often remembered as a musical wasteland, but that period actually marked a high point in pop, one where working-class, urban youths formed a culture that crossed ethnic boundaries without seeking permission from some official arbiter of "Britishness". It was not to last. Morrissey may have claimed that his comment about reggae was misinterpreted; it nonetheless tapped into a misery-guts, revisionist sentiment in the British Establishment that sought to cleanse itself of this immigrant influence and return to an imagined era of "classic" guitar bands: Britpop. Britpop's all-white cast shut black and Asian kids out of the UK mainstream and pushed them towards American hip-hop and R'n'B, which have since been sectioned off into their own TV channels and radio stations. The influence of MC culture may be audible in mainstream pop acts from Lily Allen to Groove Armada, but this is rarely acknowledged.
Yet it is not all gloom and doom. A new generation mixes hip-hop styles with the Caribbean-inflected vocals of its forebears. Riko's "Ice Rink Vocal" is produced by Wiley, a pioneer of the grime sound. It is typical of the genre, which fizzes with exciting, fresh ideas, but still hasn't been able to move beyond an "I'm-tougher-than-you" outlook to capture wider attention.
There are also, on this male-dominated compilation, a few signs that women are getting to have their say on the mike. Doctor and DaVin Che's "Gotta Man?" is a boy-girl lyrical battle reminiscent of Dizzee Rascal's "I Luv U", and there is an outstanding track by the Heatwave with Warrior Queen ("Things Change"), who in recent years has been lending her formidable vocal skills to everyone from dubstep producers to avant-garde noise artists.
The British pop industry is in terminal decline, eaten away by private equity firms, a failure to cope with the digital age and a total lack of imagination among its higher echelons. The future is a fragmented and uncertain place where the next big idea is as likely to come from a hotshot kid remixing a forgotten, decades-old seven-inch as from some Svengali-like record-label mogul. The electrifying, grass-roots creativity on An England Story hints at just how great this future could be. Bigots of all colours will hate it.

"An England Story: the Culture of the MC in the UK 1984-2008" (Soul Jazz) is out now

chump.

Daniel Trilling seemingly hasn't heard of a little band called My Vitriol.

"The early Nineties are often remembered as a musical wasteland, but that period actually marked a high point in pop, one where working-class, urban youths formed a culture that crossed ethnic boundaries without seeking permission from some official arbiter of "Britishness"

awestruck at this. no-one calls it a musical wasteland. no-one doles out "Britishness" points either, do they? were there may writers (other than geir) saying, 'hmf, this massive attack/guy called gerald record isn't very british'. maybe in the BNP, but rly, otherwise...

I would point out that according to Papa Levi's "Mi God, Mi King," the funniest of all comedians is Kenny Everett.

Why 'chump'?

The bits you highlit aren't far off are they?

xpost OK, rethinking yr response

Plus it's kind of a two-way sword, you can't go around giving it the big unsmiley face at Britpop for those reasons, then turn around and say "THANK GOD FOR GRIME, IT'S A BRITISH VERSION OF HIP-HOP FOR BRITISH PEOPLE".

Really, we should all just agree that "Six Months In A Leaky Boat" by Split Enz is a great song, and leave it at that.

OK, rethought...

Yeah, I do remember that time, and there was a lot of 'don't stray off into unknown/unchartered waters', which wsan't racist as such, more 'conservative' with the small c. Then, ideas changed, because it FELT GOOD actually.

I'm assuming it was about the 'house' musics/rap/etc that came over. So many guitar bands were just about to go all Iggy/Stooges, then went 'hey what?' as they saw their audience go 'dancey', and they followed suit.

It then 'regressed' to Oasis/Britpop, the rest you know.

xpost
literally a one-track mind.

"Reggae is vile," the former Smiths singer Morrissey once infamously declared.

Moz is certainly entitled to his opinion.

Britpop's all-white cast shut black and Asian kids out of the UK mainstream and pushed them towards American hip-hop and R'n'B, which have since been sectioned off into their own TV channels and radio stations.

I seem to remember a black dude in Ocean Colour Scene, for whatever that's worth.

lpl

Plus there's something really creepy about a white guy like Trilling "exoticizing" the other in this way, especially when the other is, y'know, dudes that lived and grew up in the same fucking country as him.

Britpop's all-white cast shut black and Asian kids out of the UK mainstream and pushed them towards American hip-hop and R'n'B, which have since been sectioned off into their own TV channels and radio stations.

i don't think it works like that. it's not like the UK mainstream in 1994-96 was saturated by white rock anyway (was it?); look at any chart. it's wishful thinking to say that, had it not been for britpop, jungle would have been a ToTP fixture. as a scene it was smaller than early-90s rave had been, much more localized. and given that rave had 'happened without your permission' and was also multiracial, and also took place while the record comapnies generally promoted conventional rock acts, i'm not seeing his argument.

but also how did britpop 'push' these kids 'toward' american hip-hop and r'n'b? how does that even work?

he's appealing to a vague one-nation thing maybe?

Morrissey may have claimed that his comment about reggae was misinterpreted; it nonetheless tapped into a misery-guts, revisionist sentiment in the British Establishment that sought to cleanse itself of this immigrant influence and return to an imagined era of "classic" guitar bands: Britpop

Or, y'know, maybe....and bear with me now, this gets complicated... MAYBE Morrissey SIMPLY DOESN'T LIKE REGGAE.

"An England Story" looks good tho.

Don't you agree? Dont you agree?

And if "bling" is everywhere in today's pop culture, it's got nothing on Glamma Kid, who took self-aggrandisement to surreal levels on tracks such as 1995's "Fashion Magazine".

I like this tune but this is a bit OTT

The early Nineties are often remembered as a musical wasteland, but that period actually marked a high point in pop, one where working-class, urban youths formed a culture that crossed ethnic boundaries without seeking permission from some official arbiter of "Britishness".

I'm a bit confused by this, it really needs examples. No wait I figured it out - he's talking about Senser

Rest of it seems fine as puff pieces go - NB I like this comp a whole lot and am all for it being written about in 'unlikely' places

it's not really an unlikely place -- staggers went totally boat over burial, loves grime, hires the lex, etc.

i'm sure it's a fine comp.

Glamma kid was great.

"Or, y'know, maybe....and bear with me now, this gets complicated... MAYBE Morrissey SIMPLY DOESN'T LIKE REGGAE."

or, y'know, maybe he hates it, or thinks it's 'vile'.
what was the last thing you described as vile?

I suspect Alex has an actual answer to this question

I'd say the problem with Britpop was that it just sounded like a lot of 60s or New Wave records that my parents owned and were a lot better anyway. I think my dad even bought "Morning Glory". So it was more of an old/new divide for me rather than black/white. Gabrielle was just as boringly retro as Oasis, imo.

CHALLENGING

My mum said not to talk to you.

i told her to tell you that.

or, y'know, maybe he hates it, or thinks it's 'vile'.
what was the last thing you described as vile?

Are you attempting to suggest that the usage of the perfectly legitimate adjective, "vile," is CODE FOR RACISM or something?

To my recollection, the last time I used the word vile, it was in reference to the fare on offer at a restaurant in midtown.

Results 1 - 10 of about 19,700 for morrissey + enoch powell. (0.30 seconds)

ho ho, jumping to conclusions alex!
vile = 'disgusting, extremely unpleasant, morally bad/wicked'.
your use of vile is appropriate, is how anyone would in fact use it.
i'm not going to parse this out for you, what connotations does morrissey's use of the word suggest, about his subject?
remember what it means, remember how he is/was a verbose and cunning linguist, and remember also that he was a huge fan of THE NEW YORK DOLLS.

tbh the 'morrissey: reggae is vile' discussion is about as fruitful and rewarding as the 'homophobia in dancehall' discussion.

Perhaps he said "Reg Kray is vile" and the interviewer misheard him.

remember what it means, remember how he is/was a verbose and cunning linguist, and remember also that he was a huge fan of THE NEW YORK DOLLS.

I'm simply suggesting that to build an argument on the mere employment of a simple adjective -- however arguably exotic a word to most slack-jawed Yanks -- makes for an awfully shaky foundation on which to base your case.

you are absolutely right quitney. i took the bait in this knowledge though, cos that morrissy comment is a crystallised statement of little-englander insularity and i can't abide people defending it as musical taste

not really alex. morrissey knew his music, his history, his pop and social culture. his criticism is imlicitly about more than music.
maybe you dont get that.

implicitly

Morrissey knew his music, his history

A pity he didn't know anyone else's.

maybe you dont get that.

Oh you patronizing fucker.

OF COURSE Morrissey knows his music, history, pop and social culture. That doesn't change the fact that vile remains a perfectly valid adjective with which to decry an entire genre of music based on one's opinion. I'm not defending Morrissey so much as his -- or anyone else's -- simple employment of a word. Later today, I may very well utter that "Polka is VILE." This doesn't mean that I want to send all the Poles back to fuckin' Warsaw.

ok then, it's perfectly valid. so what do you think about the fact this comment has been reprinted so many times since he made it? what's your opinion on the writers and editiors' motivations there?

To slander Morrissey as you appear to be doing?

enjoy 1987 guys

also, this is not a question of free speech. no one's denying him the right to speak.

ha ha alfred. did that lawsuit ever happen? bigmouth strikes again

so what do you think about the fact this comment has been reprinted so many times since he made it? what's your opinion on the writers and editiors' motivations there?

It's called sensationalism, and you clearly -- and dutifully -- bought right into it.

Can we talk about "Bengali In Platforms" again?

Britpop's all-white cast shut black and Asian kids out of the UK mainstream and pushed them towards American hip-hop and R'n'B, which have since been sectioned off into their own TV channels and radio stations.

I seem to remember a black dude in Ocean Colour Scene, for whatever that's worth.

-- Alex in NYC, Monday, 17 March 2008 12:29 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

Were Echobelly not Britpop? What about Skunk Anansie? Republica?

Skunk Anansie = too heavy

Republica = too synthy

Guess Echobelly were, tho.

I'd say the only cmment Moz would ever retract if he could would be that reggae one. To the point of rectivating "attack", putting reggae tracks on his 'compilation/mix' CD, etc.

(The only one he :did: retract was that one about the Arctic Monkeys, which he did w/ grace and actually ended up looking the bigger man because of it. If he'd actually done that before, well...)

Echobelly, also = CHAMPIONED BY MORRISSEY!!!

What did he say about the Arctic Monkeys?

ha when i was at school in the bad old britpop days the indiest schmindiest guy around was this guy

There's a Face article from around 93/94 were a load of "New Wave of New Wave" types talk about "issues" facing young people in Major's Britain. There's Elastica, Echobelly, Sleeper and some other bands that are even more forgotten now. I remember somebody emailing it to me for lols, so it must be online somewhere. Race comes up quite a bit, as does dance music, sexuality, the recession, etc...

So we can all compare indie kids attitudes before and after Britpop. Got the impression they were generally a bit more right on than nowadays.

The arct's:

Basically, that they hadn't played their dues, got famous too quickly before they were ready, etc. A week later, he apologised to them and the world, explaining that when he thought about it, exactly the same thing had happened to The Smiths, and that he should shut his big gob, sort of thing..

Meanwhile....

http://www.morrissey-solo.com/news/2004/images/mozstewart.jpg

no north african musical influence on daft punk: AWFULLY SUSPICIOUS.

Found that article:

http://www.theseanimalmen.co.uk/images/articles/face1_small.jpg

From: http://www.theseanimalmen.co.uk/press_articles.htm

Sorry, but I couldn't get beyond this:

but will These Animal Men become the new Vibrators?

Or even: http://www.theseanimalmen.co.uk/images/articles/face1.jpg

I don't even remember These Animal Men and I listened to a lot of Radio 1 in the evenings as a teenager/had indie mates. They must have been particularly crap, the article itself is weird though...

lol 90s

damn, rick witter was young.

TAM were pretty lame and i am struggling to remember one single song. the flew the adidas-and-lonsdale flag pretty early though.

They had pretty low whore diamond ratings. xp

well, aside from morrissey having a pretty wrinkly forehead these days, i think his opinions and lyrical expressions have always been deliberately voiced so as to make an obvious and startling impression. he's an extremely opiniated individual, that's what's made him so directly intense and compelling over the years. and that's how he pretty much seems to perceive his own role. call it a charicature or whatever - his stance and relevance as an artist is based around saying things in a kneejerk and straightforward manner, even if that means saying things that are contradictory to his own perceived reputatory take on things. thus most things he says are to be taken with a grain of salt. though it should be observed that a lot of what he says he probably doesn't really believe deep down inside. or even believe at all...

i should not have posted this in a morrissey thread.

Morrissey more like MorRACISTy

you shd email that to conor mcrubbish.

this thread, close enough..

isn't 'A matter of opinion' the great lost Smiths song?

never heard it