Stealth Christian Rockers

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Like, we all know about Creed, but what about people like Michelle Branch, who are touring with the also stealth-Christian Lifehouse and whose lyrics can very easily be about either a boy or The Man Upstairs? And what about that conflation of the earthly and the otherworldly for purposes of marketing? Isn't it just a bit ... sacreligious? Or is the pursuit of wealth just as important as the pursuit of salvation?

― maura, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(if anyone can tell me if M. Branch has Xian roots, I'll kiss them)

― maura, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Low, you mean?

― Tom, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Also, define "marketing". AGAIN. (Sorry this is a personal bugbear. Also what is evangelism if not marketing heh so yeah there is no conflict.)

― Tom, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't think bands are putting out a Christian message to make themselves more commercially marketable, though they may be using commerce to make the gospel more marketable.

Today I find a copy of a Billy Graham magazine in my mail-box. Someone had given me a gift subscription to "Decision." I am _not_ amused. (Subscription has now been canceled.)

― DeRayMi, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

marketing here, tom, means selling songs with an overtly religious message to those who might not want to buy into said message. where all references to 'someone' or 'him' are, in the videos that promote the record & make people want to eventually purchase it, obliquely about the member of the opposite gender hanging around the performance shots' fringes, while in the context of the record they're fairly explicitly about the highest powers.

― maura, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Aaaah right. But I cant get too worried about that cause it probably wouldn't work. It's intelectually dishonest but that is hardly unknown in pop music.

And how about that hip-hop eh?? You buy a Missy Elliot record expecting it to all be about fucking and there's gospel tracks on the end! (OR: why is it only 'rock' we get worried about being 'Christian' - while 'soul' gets much more of a free pass?)

― Tom, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

blues rock r&b punXoR rap house all = Xtian heresies

― mark s, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Another qn - why do rock fans so often like their rock stars to be sincere in everything EXCEPT their belief in god?

― Tom, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i think soul gets a freer pass, if it does, because it's more overt in the message - a gospel song is fairly explicit in what it's worshiping, you know.

what's bothering me here is more the stealthiness of the message than the message itself - it just is very very sneaky, very in line with my view of certain threads of american christianity in a 'come to our 'meeting' where we're all friendly and then we reveal our true purposes to you' sort of way.

― maura, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah, I can see that - but on the other hand that's what rockers who are Christians have to do in a very secularised environment. Soul singers can praise God because for some reason it's more 'expected'.

― Tom, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

but it's a ridiculously secularized environment, because not only do you have bands like lifehouse and P.O.D. who are totally playing down their Christian roots, you have the britney spears record, where the lord almighty is thanked first, and you have that whole experience i had at the destiny's child show where the audience was instructed to 'get up for jesus.' so how secularized is it, really? the mixing of the messages is mind-boggling.

― maura, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Maura you live in which country? I'm astonished that one of America's primary entertainment media IS so secular! What I think happened is that at some point (quite possibly under the influence of the British Invasion, initially) rock disconnected itself from whatever religious roots might have endured, and has happily continued on a winding and perverse path well away from the rest of American pop-culture which to foreign eyes looks really quite religious (in a very wishy-washy do-as-I-say not-as-I-do sense). Hence the idea of Christian rock bands is either disturbing or laughable depending on your concerns.

― Tom, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

here are a variety of reasons for this whole phenomenon, and in my experience they can be reduced to the following:

1. COVERT CONVERSION: wherein a listener is hooked in by a vague song so as to preach to them in the other 11. This happens, though not very widely. It may be the case with M. Branch or Lifehouse or POD, but not likely. What is more likely in these cases are the following...

2. MONEY: wherein record executive signs band with Christian roots because executive thinks sound is marketable (based on all of the instances cited, I'd say executives in these cases had the right idea). Executive says they are really excited about the future, but could artist please just tone down the God content for 1 or 2 songs to provide hit single, and if artist could kindly do this, record executive can assure scads of units moved. Again, a fair rate of success in the cases cited. and while there is a degree to which soul is given a free pass, none of the tracks cited in that genre have been lead singles for the record. The prevailing logic is: you can sing about whatever the hell you want, just provide 2 songs so investments can be recouped. There is also:

3. AFTER THE FADE: Most of the first fans of these bands/artists were in church youth groups. For those of you unfamiliar with how this works: in evangelical Christianity, Youth Pastors throw dollars behind "relevant" artists whose sound approximates a vogue style in popular music, in order to provide for their youth a "safe, Christian" alternative to "corrupt" pop. Both Lifehouse and P.O.D. had strong church support for their early efforts (released on Christian Record Labels). So now that the bands have been netted by major labels, they need to provide songs that will appeal to the general populace in order to sell more records, but can't *completely* cast off references to God (no matter how vague), or the Youth Groups that supported them early on will brand them sellouts and abandon them completely. This wouldn't be an issue, except that the bands in question know damn well that their moment in the pop limelight is fleeting, and that eventually they're going to have to return to the quite-lucrative Youth Group market once their 15 minutes has run out. So they tread the line for a while, make the cash, and assure for themselves a viable safety net by ducking all "sellout" accusations with songs that could be interpreted as God-praising.

All of these, spoken from experience. :jek

― jek, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

and as far as Britney &etc giving big-ups to The Lord -- this provides an easy way for pre-teens to persuade their iffy parents to purchase the record ("see, mom, Britney loves God!").

:jek

― jek, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

WoaH. L3t's H34R !t for KING'S X

parais ethe lord etc etc.

(king's x "gretchen goes to nebraska" = great BTW)

― Norman Phay, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think it's all fine... I think most of the hipster kids will just sneer and make fun of it anyway. Weren't the Violent Femmes sort of Christian? And Maria McKee? And didn't Ozzy say: "My name is Lucifer, please take my hand." Nothing grey about that, is there?

― Andy, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

you have that whole experience i had at the destiny's child show where the audience was instructed to 'get up for jesus.

Actually, this was one of the first times I've EVER had a huge problem with religious bullshit in music (err, sorry if I offend anyone with the bullshit comment). I usually just ignore crap like Creed or what have you, but the Destiny's Child performance at the Concert of NY REALLY bugged the shit out of me. That big time "LOOK AT US WE ARE MARIAH!" gospel song they did...I just have a huge problem with people praising Jesus and carrying on about religion at an event caused, in part, by a fundamental religious disagreement. Yes, let's rub it in everyone's face that we disagree.

Oh, I had such a problem with it, I can't even describe how big my issue with it was, I was really angry at the time. I'm coming more and more onto hating Destiny's Child to be honest.

― Ally, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

All I know is, re-listening to The Spirit Room with this question in mind is the most fun I've had all week.

― Cryosmurf, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

As far as I know, Michelle Branch is not a stealth Christian rocker, although from my work-related conversations with her, it would seem that she subscribes to the same pseudo-Christian-religiousity that most Americans have. It never comes up in marketing discussions about her, for sure.

I would also argue that P.O.D. are hardly stealth about their Christian rock status, but Lifehouse are a whole 'nother story.

Dan Gibson

― Dan Gibson, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

What if someones reliogn is intensely important to them and they include it as an inspiration. Like the Danielson Famile

― anthony, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I guess ultimately this is a question about are they good or not, isn't it? If Low was seen to suck and not rule, would people hold their Mormon faith against them?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Prince! Speaking of which, has anyone heard the new one? I should start a thread.

― Jordan, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i think there is a difference between god and religion with people like destiny's child. god's "the" pop star so we gotta give him his props. funny to see people who pretty much wipe their rear with ten commandment printed toilet paper show such 'reverence' at awards shows.

― keith, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This started in the 70s, & it seems to swell with the popularity of any sort of New Age movement. Can't you trace it back to Van Morrison and Dylan? They were the founders of Christian Stealth.

Love this thread, by the way.

― Mark, Friday, 30 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

but Low is not Mormon in there lyrics. I have heard mormon musicand it is shit . MAybe if you put art above christ then christ can bubble to the surface.

― anthony, Friday, 30 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I was always kind of fascinated by the phenomenon of directly secularized gospel, i.e. people would listen to Ray Charles' "This Little Girl of Mine" knowing full well that it was just "This Little Light of Mine" in secular drag.

Somebody mentioned the Danielson Famile, who are very overtly Christian, strange as anything, and very fantastic. (Also, when they play Christian-music festivals, nobody has any idea what to make of them.) David Thomas of Pere Ubu etc. is maybe a little more germane--I mean, a bunch of his old lyrics are VERY VERY overtly Jehovah's Witness ("Jehovah's Kingdom Comes," anyone?) and nobody really noticed because he's so weird.

I'm actually sort of interested in a sister phenomenon to the one Maura describes: bands/songwriters who are very Xian and encouraged to keep it under their hats for one reason or another (Sunny Day Real Estate, anyone?). I always kind of wanted to commission a compilation of religious music by bands that didn't generally get thought of as Christian/Jewish/Muslim/what-have-you, outing themselves...

One other note: the new Mogwai single, while not really my thing, has a melody that anyone who's even vaguely Jewish will recognize instantly as "Avinu Malkeinu."

― Douglas, Friday, 30 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Incoherent blathering: i think that i could handle a sincerely Christian rock or pop artist, but there has to be fervor or conviction in the music. Groaning generic praises to god or jesus, ect. is achingly insincere. it's hard to feel an empathy for the music, no matter how much one diagrees with the message. It might fall into the spirituality versus religion division, because it's easy to shell out dollars for jesus, but harder to hand oneself over body and soul to a conviction that must never be compromised. It's religion at one's convenience, with no sacrifice, tailored to fit that jesus was a skater or punk or some such nonsense. "Marketing" might be an uncomfortable word to use in this forum, but most of the christianity seems postured and invoked often only in lipservice. Christian rock, as opposed to soul, is as much niche marketing as the Lilith Fair or X-treme sports soundtracks. There's lots of money in religion, and just like flowing skirts and facial piercings, jesus is a brandname. I had to deal with many mothers who asked me whether a certain band was christian or not, and a CD by them would only be bought if the answer was yes.

― badger, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

ten months pass...

Best proposed U2 bio name: God is like a Girl

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 00:03 (twenty-three years ago)

mark s's comment encapsulated the exact truth so succinctly that nobody even noticed it

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 00:14 (twenty-three years ago)

At the end of "Soma" by the Smashing Pumpkins, you can hear a preacher saying "And you need to resist the devil so that he--will--flee!"

..subliminal Christian messages!!! GAH!

― Curtis Stephens, Wednesday, 30 October 2002 01:04 (twenty-three years ago)

(OR: why is it only 'rock' we get worried about being 'Christian' - while 'soul' gets much more of a free pass?)

Because the entirety of Soul music is based on Gospel! Aretha, Sam Cooke, Otis, Sam Moore, Solomon Burke- they all started in church; Destiny's Child giving props to God is just the carrying on of that tradition. Plus, there's that whole civil rights/religion thing that someone mentioned on an ILE thread.

Rock, meanwhile, doesn't share these roots- sure, Little Richard learned alot from Gospel, and Elvis made his share of religious records, but by and large 50's Rock & Roll was for people more interested in going to *parties* than going to church- and a lot of it was pretty satanic from the get-go ("Race With The Devil", "Little Demon", "Who Do You Love?") Then (as Tom noted) came the British Invasion, and of course The Beatles had ZERO to do with any kind of church. Today's average Rock fan doesn't want their fav bands to be religious for the simple reason that he usually either doesn't give a fuck about religion or is actively *resentful* towards it.

― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 30 October 2002 12:45 (twenty-three years ago)

two years pass...

Great thread. I don't think I can add much. Christian rock's general MOR attitude reminds me of a youth group thing I went to a few times in High Shool. They go out of their way not to offend anyone or be explicit about what they're about so they intentionally keep things as "cool" and unoffensively religious as possible for non-Christian kids. (FREE PIZZA AND DRINKS SATURDAY *and possible talk of God and life in general btw) The "cool" kids this was intended to fool see through this pretty fast usually but may tolerate it for social purposes (MAJOR points with Christian girls FTW). These meetings eventually get shown for being the shallow sham they are when the free pizza is gone and the kids are done flirting. The music is vaguely spiritual and seems almost U2-inspired. Now that I am thinking about it I remember them playing songs inspired by Wonderwall and another that seemed to rip off Ride's Vapour Trail (although I doubt it was intentional)

On the "not-their-own-fault" side of the CR coin I think Q Magazine actually tackled this quite well when they interviewed Smokey Robinson last year. They implied that he is robbed of a certain place in rock history because becoming a Born-again Christian is unfashionable and pretty boring in the media and that is why he will never be as respected or cool as someone like Lou Reed. That last point is ironic when you consider Reed tops Q's new "WORST ROCK STAR" list or whatever it's called.

http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/3443/u22et.jpg

― Cunga (Cunga), Friday, 14 October 2005 04:42 (twenty years ago)

I think it's because black people often get the "Magic Negro" treatment and are expected to be religious and supersticious. Well, that and that gospel and religious blues is much more interesting to listen to than most Sixpence None The Richer pseudo-Christianity.
Oh, and best odd Christian group? 16 Horsepower. That's the sort of Christian music to play when you're askin' the Lord to forgive you for stabbin' a man in the back and burying him in a shallow grave.

― js (honestengine), Friday, 14 October 2005 14:20 (twenty years ago)

Oh, there's also Innocence Mission, who are OK but a little literock.

― js (honestengine), Friday, 14 October 2005 14:38 (twenty years ago)

I always found Christian rock a fascinating subject - and something that I cannot properly understand, since here in Italy we don't have such a market niche (or maybe we just do not have rock music, period).
Just a silly question: in terms of sales, how big is in the US the "proper" Christian rock thing?

― Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Friday, 14 October 2005 14:41 (twenty years ago)

there is also the whole michigan scene of hidden christians that revolve around warren defever: his name is alive, ida, velour 100 (who were actually on a christian label).... I've never figured out if they were actually christian or not though.

― kyle (akmonday), Friday, 14 October 2005 15:27 (twenty years ago)

Marco- In terms of sales, the Soundscan category is "Gospel" and that moved 43.5 million units in 2004 (though there's no breakdown for contemporary christian versus traditional gospel or black gospel). Couple hundred million bucks at wholesale, maybe even almost a billion retail.

― js (honestengine), Friday, 14 October 2005 15:54 (twenty years ago)

to answer the sacriligion question in the thread post, i think they cite the Song of Songs/Solomon as precedent.

― AaronK (AaronK), Friday, 14 October 2005 16:35 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but Song of Solomon is clearly about getting laid. The bits about it being devotion kinda get undermined when ol' Sol starts talking about what great tits his girl has (they are, apparently, like the bent necks of fauns or something).

― js (honestengine), Friday, 14 October 2005 16:47 (twenty years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.