Women can't play guitar

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19175-2004Aug20.html

― shookout (shookout), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, for fuck's sake.

― mike a, Monday, 23 August 2004 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, two of his main sources are the Great Kat and Camille Paglia? Talk about writing the conclusion first and finding corroberating sources later.

― mike a, Monday, 23 August 2004 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

i didn't read the whole thing, did he interview rory block?

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, two of his main sources are the Great Kat and Camille Paglia

another main source is a top-100 list from rolling stone magazine. so obviously he's researched the topic thoroughly!

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

coming tomorrow in the washington post: "women can't be ceo's."

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:28 (twenty-one years ago)

His theory relies on the fact that one of Rolling Stone's "best of" lists is credible. Bad start there. Some good points overall though.

xpost arrgh

― Cheek0 (Cheek0), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:29 (twenty-one years ago)

um...

"Onstage, women seek a place of comfort -- which is usually being the singer, where they can trade on their beauty rather than compete with instrumentalists," says Richard Peterson, professor emeritus of sociology at Vanderbilt University. "The 9-year-old girl isn't badgering her daddy to buy her a guitar. She's in her room fantasizing about the clothes her band will wear while she's leading it."

emend that to "emeritus, thankfully"

― g--ff (gcannon), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:30 (twenty-one years ago)

as if 9-year-old BOYS don't fantasize about the clothes they'll wear onstage one day!

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Or NASCAR drivers. Or Special Ops commandos. Or pro football players. They also got rooked of credit in the discovery of DNA. And they were left out of the Manhattan Project. They didn't develop the H-bomb, either. Women didn't get to discover antibiotics or the first vaccine. And they got pushed out of the way when putting together the periodic table, too. No women got to compete with Galileo or Isaac Newton. Fuckin' fuck.

Hey, the Washington Poster only missed Great Kat for twenty years. I like her but she's been doing the same thing since the mid-80's when her records were actually easier to find because Roadrunner was pressing them. And "Rossini's Rape" is about four years old. Sheesh, you think he could at least have mentioned the war video she made after 9/11 and all the photos of her prepping some slug for a simultaneous castration and enema.

― George Smith, Monday, 23 August 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

where have you gone, Sylvia Juncosa?

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

As far as pioneering a style goes, two words: Maybelle Carter.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:40 (twenty-one years ago)

all I have to say is: kill.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Didn't Juliana Hatfield say something similar last decade - that women are physiologically unable to play rock guitar? Or was that urban myth?

― mike a, Monday, 23 August 2004 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)

she said that women on average have small fingers.

Kim Deal said that amps are heavy, and most women don't find them worth carrying.

neither realized that men would take these quotes and warp them into a defense of institutional sexism.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Related topic always of interest to daily newspaper idiots: Girls suck at math and science because they're boy things.

― George Smith, Monday, 23 August 2004 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

And, of course, he forgets April Lawton in Ramatam who got billed over Mike Pinera, a poor man's shredder from the Sixties.

― George Smith, Monday, 23 August 2004 17:48 (twenty-one years ago)

all this condemnation, but where are the female guitar goddesses he missed? let's have some names!

― shookout (shookout), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Amps are heavy!

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe women rockers got something of a late start and, now that the playing field is level, guitar "heroism" has far less cultural value. I mean, modern teenagers looking to "shred" are as dorky as the kids doing theater tech. That's the trenchcoat mafia demo. The more recent entries on the Rolling Stone list were really just guitar players who worked with important bands. I'm sure there are a million guitar playing women as skillful and innovative as Kurt Cobain.

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Are you talking about the Amps?

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Ditto Mark. Being a guitar hero is like being able to type 100 wpm - it may be an impressive skill, but who wants to sit there and watch it?

― mike a, Monday, 23 August 2004 17:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm surprised he didn't interview Chrissie Hynde.

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:53 (twenty-one years ago)

His theory relies on the fact that one of Rolling Stone's "best of" lists is credible. Bad start there. Some good points overall though.
xpost arrgh

-- Cheek0 (mcheek...), August 23rd, 2004.

But it is. It's the most widely read music magazine -- or one of them at least; if his point was to show what the majority view is, that's the place to quote.

― David Allen (David Allen), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:53 (twenty-one years ago)

George Smith OTM. The problem I have with articles like this is that its criticism could apply to almost every profession. Why aren't there more women [insert profession here]??

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:54 (twenty-one years ago)

is there some book where you can search any given opinion and find the name of a professor who will corroborate it?

― amateur!!st, Monday, 23 August 2004 17:56 (twenty-one years ago)

well at least women can swim, unlike black people!

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Christ, not a week goes by where you can't find some sissy article in the dailies somewhere in the country going on about rock camp for girls, or Daisy Rock guitars for girls, or some band of altie, undie or classic rock bores led by girls, girls who rawwwk, girls on the march, ads for small but mighty amplifiers for girls in the guitar mags, girls getting tossed off stages, getting heckled by dickheads, generally being treated like dirt, just like everybody else in the dump.

It's an evergreen topic that takes all of twenty minutes to write a
minimum of a thousand words on.

― George Smith, Monday, 23 August 2004 17:57 (twenty-one years ago)

"Yes, amateurist, there is." - Prof. Mark Eidelberg, Doctor of Books Full of Useful Information, University of Maryland.

― n.a. (Nick A.), Monday, 23 August 2004 17:57 (twenty-one years ago)

is there some book where you can search any given opinion and find the name of a professor who will corroborate it?

Yes, actually. They've been around since I've been in journalism. Generally, they're published by the p.r. departments of universities and, as example, furnished to newspapers in the region the university serves. For example, Lehigh University would send a master list of its experts-ready-for-comment-in-any-subject to the Allentown, PA, newspaper.

― George Smith, Monday, 23 August 2004 18:00 (twenty-one years ago)

but are they just lists of experts on subjects or does it have entries like,

"'plastic paper clips encourage suicide': prof. lena booker, university of southwest oregon state."

― amateur!!st, Monday, 23 August 2004 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Chicks on Speed's "We Don't Play Guitars" to thread.

― mike a, Monday, 23 August 2004 18:03 (twenty-one years ago)

And, anyway, Segal missed Jennifer Batten, another shredder who for the last twenty years or so has had many high-profile gigs that've landed her in mass media video, TV and multiple recordings.

― George Smith, Monday, 23 August 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

but are they just lists of experts on subjects or does it have entries like, "Professor Ironbeard, world-renowned expert on solpugids, has developed a method to turn camel spiders into arachnid soldiers against the Iraqi insurgency..."

Yes. Sorry 'bout that. There are general lists covering topics universally. And there are separate mailings when specific "experts" from academy have something they wish to pimp.

― George Smith, Monday, 23 August 2004 18:10 (twenty-one years ago)

>let's have some names!

Wata, from Boris.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Monday, 23 August 2004 18:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Men can't play bass

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 23 August 2004 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Jaco Pastorius.

― George Smith, Monday, 23 August 2004 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Gorillas can't play drums

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 23 August 2004 18:20 (twenty-one years ago)

T4R4 K3Y

― ddb (ddb), Monday, 23 August 2004 18:21 (twenty-one years ago)

ihttp://www.andersonguitars.com/customcontent/Gorilla%20holding%20DT.jpg

― amateur!!st, Monday, 23 August 2004 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, but that gorilla is far from a pioneer, amateur!!st. he's just, ya know, aping somebody else's style.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 23 August 2004 18:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Who was that drunken TV golf commentator who got fired after saying women can't play golf 'cause "their boobs get in the way"?

It was indeed Juliana Hatfield who made that remark about women not being able to play guitar, although as I recall, she singled out Bonnie Raitt as the exception. (Ms. Hatfield herself had the good taste to play a Gibson SG, which is alright by me.)

Hasn't Tina Weymouth also made comments about female bassists in the past?

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Monday, 23 August 2004 18:32 (twenty-one years ago)

is there some book where you can search any given opinion and find the name of a professor who will corroborate it?

in addition to the books george mentions, there is also ProfNet, for the savvy investigative reporter with a modem.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 23 August 2004 18:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe what it boils down to is that female guitarists are far less likely to wank away uselessly and instead just play, i.e. they wouldn't make one of those "lists"!

men like to wank, you see.

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 23 August 2004 18:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe they'd be a lot better at guitar if they spent a little less time getting knocked up and making me sandwiches.

― Talent Explosion (Talent Explosion), Monday, 23 August 2004 19:00 (twenty-one years ago)

and talking about their feelings, am I right dudes? High five!

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 23 August 2004 19:08 (twenty-one years ago)

that article and this thread... well, they are the same.

― maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Monday, 23 August 2004 19:12 (twenty-one years ago)

liona boyd is sick.

what a toad of an article.
m.

― msp (msp), Monday, 23 August 2004 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

that article and this thread... well, they are the same.

cuz it's for the most part a bunch of guys?

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 August 2004 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe there aren't a lot of FAMOUS female guitar hero types, that doesn't mean they don't exist. There was a band called Dr. Obvious that a band I was in as a teenager opened up for a couple of times and their female guitarist (Robin, I think) was shredding up a storm and generally making an impressive job of it with her own style and all that good stuff. I'm sure there's a lot more where she came from, and needless to say there's plenty of MALE guitar hero types who are extremely talented and original who will never be in Rolling Stone, much less even ever have a record deal. This whole article seems to be based on a fallacy that the music industry is FAIR, and if there aren't any famous innovative woman guitarists, then they just must not even exist. But I just woke up, I may not have read it very carefully...

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Monday, 23 August 2004 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)

that is one of the stupidest articles i've read in a long time.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 23 August 2004 21:26 (twenty-one years ago)

let's have some names!

Shannon fucking Wright!*
Ani fucking DiFranco!
Carrie fucking Brownstein!
Thalia fucking Zedek!
etc.

*At the Shannon Wright show I saw the other month, I was chatting at the bar with a couple of total prog-rock guys who were seeing their second Shannon show in 2 nights. They were big Primus fans, if that tells you anything, and they couldn't shut up about what an amazing guitarist Shannon is. But I'm guessing David Segal hasn't had the pleasure.

― spittle (spittle), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:52 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah but this guy is preoccupied with mainstream stuff. Bandying about these indie names would probably just get a blank stare from him. Funny that he knows who The Great Kat is, though...

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Gorillas can't play drums

yeah, Cass Browne looks more like an orangutan or capuchin I guess

― kit brash (kit brash), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:57 (twenty-one years ago)

that article and this thread... well, they are the same.

wuh?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 00:00 (twenty-one years ago)

A more interesting article would have been about the decline of the guitar hero per se. How many top 10 albums in the last 5 years have featured "guitar heros"?

― spittle (spittle), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Kim McAuliffe.
Amy Surdu.

(look 'em up.)

― chuck, Tuesday, 24 August 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Weren't there TONS of hot girl guitarists with huge hair back in the late 80's - early 90's who...what...they were what?...not girls?...nevermind.

― Davlo (Davlo), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 00:19 (twenty-one years ago)

SISTER ROSETTA THARPE

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 02:16 (twenty-one years ago)

for starters

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 02:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sorry. I saw that woman from Antietam open for Yo La Tengo a while back, and at first I thought she looked like my buddy's mom, then she grabbed a guitar and kicked my ass.

She had this whole Neil Young in a power stance thing happening and would just go apeshit sometimes. The hip kiddies in the crowd were afraid.

This is the point in time that I fully dissociated myself from the chicks can't rock argument. It relit the rock and roll flame deep in my heart. It gave me faith in all that is right and good.

― Mike Salmo (salmo), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 02:53 (twenty-one years ago)

poison fuckin' ivy
carol kaye (mostly bass, but great at EVERYTHING)

+
kaye woodward (the bats/minisnap.. and also a MIGHTY bass player)
julia rouse (batrider)

― chris andrews (fraew), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 02:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Samara from Tower Recordings at the knitting factory in december played some of the nicest guitar i've heard in a long long time. it was hypnotic.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 02:58 (twenty-one years ago)

you mean Hall of Fame.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 03:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd just like to take this opportunity to once again post this picture of me with The Great Kat, who will rip you all to shreds. Punks!

http://ox.eicat.ca/~scarruthers/ilx/sean-greatkat-s.jpg

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 03:23 (twenty-one years ago)

how tall is she Sean?

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 03:35 (twenty-one years ago)

LARGER THAN LIFE

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 04:13 (twenty-one years ago)

yet shorter than everyone here.

http://www.osric.com/~jeremy/pics/the_great_kat/great_kat2.jpg

what happens when college radio dorks run into the Great Kat at CMJ in 2000.

Yours Truly is on the very right of that pic.

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 04:13 (twenty-one years ago)

also, i'm willing to bet money that Wendy Case or Cheetie Kumar could whup this writer's ass, or shred far better...

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 04:14 (twenty-one years ago)

seriously. please tell me she's like 5'2", that would be purrrrrrfect.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 04:14 (twenty-one years ago)

that picture kinda looks like this thread

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 04:15 (twenty-one years ago)

there's no way in hell she's taller than 60 inches...

that picture kinda looks like this thread

what, with the glowing sweatshirts?

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 04:27 (twenty-one years ago)

there's no way in hell she's taller than 60 inches...
krowr

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 04:29 (twenty-one years ago)

if you rub that guy's chest you find out whether he's an autobot or a deceptacon

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 04:32 (twenty-one years ago)

so......does she smell good?

Kingfish you look like a very specific ex-child star whose name I can't place right now in that pic.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 04:37 (twenty-one years ago)

she smelled...leathery.

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 04:59 (twenty-one years ago)

ah...

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 05:00 (twenty-one years ago)

"you mean Hall of Fame."

No, i meant tower recordings, but hall of fame as well.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 09:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Tara Key!
Wendy Melvoin!
Emma from Delgados!

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Mary Halvorson, who is still mostly known as a jazz player (but stay tuned...)

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

The most virtuoso female electric guitar player I can think of off the top of my head is (the late) Emily Remler. The stuff I've heard of hers is mainstream post-bop, she's hardly an originator but she could piss on 90% of Rolling Stone's list technically.

― frankiemachine, Tuesday, 24 August 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

The article reminds me of the scene in Purple Rain, the movie, when Prince overhears Wendy and Lisa playing a composition of their own and castigates them for undermining his leadership by striking out on their own. In response, Wendy mockingly plays the gonzo riff from Let’s Go Crazy at him with an “are you happy now?” sneer.
My guess is that female musicians aren’t generally interested in guitar heroics because their instinct is to communicate in a more direct fashion - that is, with words and melody.

― Palomino (Palomino), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 15:10 (twenty-one years ago)

gear! and palomino otm.

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 15:30 (twenty-one years ago)

No, this is OTM:

A more interesting article would have been about the decline of the guitar hero per se. How many top 10 albums in the last 5 years have featured "guitar heros"?
-- spittle (ptu...), August 24th, 2004 8:02 PM. (later)

― n.a. (Nick A.), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

One thing that rarely seems to get mentioned in any discourse on female musicans = the er ambience of yer average musical instrument store. I was in one local one the other week, and the only women there were the g/fs of teenage boys, who'd been dragged in so their boyfs could point at the paul reed smith that "they were going to buy". It occurred to me that it's been a long time since I've seen a woman buying, or trying out an electric guitar, bass or whatever, I mean a really long time, like a couple of years. I guess it's not surprising, really - in 20 yrs, I can remember something like 2 female shop floor employees at any local music shop, & it's been a consistently fucking macho atmosphere in all that time, allright. I mean, it's all very well making a girlie guitar (like mine!! hooray!!) But what woman wd want to venture in there to buy one?

Oh yeah, Georgina Born out of Henry Cow = fucking inspirational musician, to me, anyway.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 15:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Too right. I play in aband with my ex, who's a pretty good guitarist, and she'll go to music shops to look at stuff, but feels too intimidated to try it out. Boo.

― Ben Dot (1977), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

rock-a-billies:

Cordell Jackson
Poison Ivy

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

*ahem*

why does anyone take the paglia seriously? she's like the howard stern of feminist theory.

― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

OTM, Orbit!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Pashmina:
last time I was in a guitar store there was a 14 yr old girl in there buying an amp with her dad and talking about her band. It was quite cool to see.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

the er ambience of yer average musical instrument store

---

in my home town its quite different.. there seems to be quite a heavy concentration of young to mid 20s girls taking up guitar..

― chris andrews (fraew), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

twelve years pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H36vL3MzQDU

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 27 October 2016 18:10 (nine years ago)

...and it turned out that women COULD play guitar

― blonde redheads have more fun (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 27 October 2016 18:40 (nine years ago)

wowowowowowowow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppO5HwJjPEM

― hippie lady from california who loves that god (unregistered), Thursday, 27 October 2016 18:46 (nine years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx5-dDYbUkk

amazing

― hippie lady from california who loves that god (unregistered), Thursday, 27 October 2016 18:46 (nine years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ocyu7hNk7g

http://africancichlidhub.com/forum/Smileys/kevinsmilies/119.gif

― hippie lady from california who loves that god (unregistered), Thursday, 27 October 2016 18:47 (nine years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxOEgh5rW90

unreal

― hippie lady from california who loves that god (unregistered), Thursday, 27 October 2016 18:47 (nine years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgiQ7VeElc

nuff said

― hippie lady from california who loves that god (unregistered), Thursday, 27 October 2016 18:48 (nine years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6tXOAKGu8c

went to high school w/her

― call all destroyer, Thursday, 27 October 2016 19:18 (nine years ago)

Chicks on Speed = women who DONT play guitar

― brimstead, Thursday, 27 October 2016 22:45 (nine years ago)

women can play tasteless guitar mag bullshit just as good as men!

― blonde redheads have more fun (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 27 October 2016 22:47 (nine years ago)

remember when it turned out black people wanted to rock after all

― imago, Friday, 28 October 2016 00:00 (nine years ago)

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