Goethe's Questions for the Critic

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1. What is the artist trying to do?
2. How well is it done?
3. Is it worth doing?

I like this list. I like the questions, and I like the order in which they're asked. A lot of times I start at number 3 ("the world does not need 'roid rage metal-rap") and completely bias my answer to 2. What I eventually decided (before coming across these questions) was that the only way to really judge art is to approach it with a perspective of love, really get into it and grok it, and only after that pull back and say "was that worthwhile?"

So what do you think? Are there situations where these questions don't make sense? Are they helpful in evaluating other people's music criticism?

― Lukas (lukas), Monday, 23 August 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.

― Magic City (ano ano), Monday, 23 August 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

1) is the most problematic. But all three pertain, yeah (doubt that critics needed G. to tell 'em that).

― Don Allred, Monday, 23 August 2004 22:43 (twenty-one years ago)

What about:

4: Does the artist do something interesting and/or worthwhile that he's *not* trying to do (and how would I know what he's trying to do, anyway? Do I look like a fucking mindreader or something?)

― chuck, Monday, 23 August 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Chuck OTM. Unfortunately Goethe was hampered by the fact that 19th century German had no words for "fucking mindreader".

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

nor "reception theory"

― Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:02 (twenty-one years ago)

But yeah, intention is bullshit.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:04 (twenty-one years ago)

word. robin carmody's (great) writings which disregard the artist's intentions in favour of the record's (admittedly-alien-to-ME) appearance to the reader to thread.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:09 (twenty-one years ago)

None of these questions are answerable. And if they were answerable the answers would not be very interesting or illuminating.

However the assumption that the point of a critic is to 'judge art' is just preposterous, so in that sense, and to answer your question, they are helpful in evaluating the critic - only the bad ones think like this.

― Smart He Man Goblin, Monday, 23 August 2004 23:11 (twenty-one years ago)

1. What is the critic trying to do?
2. How well is it done?
3. Is it worth doing?

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

1. What is the critic trying to prove?
2. How did he get the job of reviewing our record?
3. Is it worth doing him over?

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:21 (twenty-one years ago)

1. what did the artist do (and can you dance to it)?

as a reader, that's pretty much it for me.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh right. I skipped the "death of the author" wake the English majors had at my school ... of course, one of those kids wore scare quotes on either side of his head for Halloween.

grumblegrumble

(ok, I'll go read up and join the 20th century)

― Lukas (lukas), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:22 (twenty-one years ago)

christ you people are annoying

― gag, Monday, 23 August 2004 23:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Yay!

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:27 (twenty-one years ago)

1. What is the arist saying to me
2. How well is s/he doing it
3. christ you people are annoying

― Bumfluff, Monday, 23 August 2004 23:27 (twenty-one years ago)

christ you people are annoying

We are SO punk rock.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:28 (twenty-one years ago)

4. How many lame smart-ass one-liners can the critic come up with?

― gag, Monday, 23 August 2004 23:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Dunno. Can I go to bed with you? I talk dirty and reference the hot 100

― Bumfluff, Monday, 23 August 2004 23:32 (twenty-one years ago)

5. How much time you got?

― oops (Oops), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey gag, I hope you don't, knowhatimsayin'

― Bumfluff, Monday, 23 August 2004 23:36 (twenty-one years ago)

1. Why is the critic so annoying?
2. What would Christ have done?
3. How are you? Well?

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:36 (twenty-one years ago)

1. i know what you're thinking: does this album have five good songs or six?
2. frankly, i don't know myself.
3. do ya feel lucky?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:38 (twenty-one years ago)

1. what did the critic do (and can you dance to it)?

― chuck, Monday, 23 August 2004 23:39 (twenty-one years ago)

1. what are you doing with your life watching the thunderbirds movie at 10am on a saturday?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:44 (twenty-one years ago)

A lot of people that are fond of this method (I din't even know Goethe came up with it, btw!) insist that the "What is the artist trying to do?" part isn't about what the actual real person who made the object being examined thinks they're doing, but what the object itself is trying to be. I've never much understood that reasoning tho, surely "what the object itself is trying to be" = "what the critic wants to believe it's trying to be"?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:49 (twenty-one years ago)

OK OK, how about this then?

1. What did the artist do?
2. What did it do to me?
3. Who else is doing it? (I mean, it's nice to have a little context)
4. When's lunch?

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 23 August 2004 23:51 (twenty-one years ago)

1. is this album for sexy people?
2. does it push it?
3. does it push it real good?

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 00:19 (twenty-one years ago)

1) What time is love?
2) How do you expect to be taken seriously?
3) Am I ever gonna see your face again?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 02:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Answers to Tim's questions above:

1. 3am Eternal
2. I will befriend Michael Stipe
3. No way, get f***ed, f*** off

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 03:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Also re intentions: Dave Hickey (one of the Voice Noise boys, with Meltzer, Bangs & Tosches, now art crit presiding over U. of Nevada-Las Gas) always sez he's not a Creationist ( divining what happens in the lab/studio/chapel of thee Artiste), but more into Evolution (what happens when vision leaves the a-man's chamber, and travles through the air and other, through your head and other: thus, his book of essays on art and democracy (incl. demonocracy, as Jon Langford would put it)is titled AIR GUITAR. Git it if you ain't got it already.

― Dallredhaus, Tuesday, 24 August 2004 12:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Who does this Goethe dood write for anyway?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 12:17 (twenty-one years ago)

1. What is the artist trying to do?
2. How well is it done?
3. Is it worth doing?

This kind of reminds me of that essay Robin Williams made his students tear out of the book, on evaluating poetry in Dead Poets Society.

Those questions, I think, are more valuable when artists rate other artists, because they tend to actually care about how the work was made, what the aim was, etc, more than laypeople. And even then, it still really comes down to "I like/dislike this and here's why".

― dleone (dleone), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Who does this Goethe dood write for anyway?

Judging by "Werther", I think he's in Bright Eyes.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 12:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Univesity of Nevada-Las Vegas, I meant, though Gas a yas too appropriatlely-wise. "What the object is trying to become" kind of a Creationist way to put in, on the aninimst tip, but I Evolve that okay, as do you, crucially adding your "what the critic wants to believe it's trying to be," that's Evo too, long as critic admits to self that's what's going on, *and* admits to self what *actual* responses sre:"somehow, I find myself listening more closely to scummy-rep Band X, than to immaculately hip Band A.",for instance. Live Evol!

― D'ohlrid, Tuesday, 24 August 2004 13:28 (twenty-one years ago)

uh?

― Bumfluff, Tuesday, 24 August 2004 13:34 (twenty-one years ago)

6. did it give you a boner?

― rozztox, Wednesday, 25 August 2004 16:28 (twenty-one years ago)

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