Rock era over for real this time?

revisionist thinking on this story: ZeL assumed interviewer was talking about 1968 Events in France (ie not 1789 Events); hence guarded early-70s response.

It is after all a TOTALLY NON-MAOIST piece of thinking (Mao tht he could transform agricultural practice in five years — which i spose he did, since abt 20 million people died of starvation). On the other hand as noted, ZeL only a maoist by gliding survivalist allegiance, not intellect or analysis.

Erm as you were: don mclean = dawn of punk

I have to emigrate.

And a lot of the really successful rock combos in the US were already assimilating elements of hip-hop before 9/11, and if anything, hip-hop's standing could be strengthened by the post-9/11 cultural landscape, particularly the more "concious" or political edged stuff. And anyway, post-babyboomer, since when did "the Kids" ever really matter?

So oldie "annoy your parents" rock 'n' roll dead? Yep, but it was well before 9/11 IMHO. The irony is that if anything, some elements of rock 'n' roll rebellion have been getting more relevant, even before 9/11. Young folks now have a lot of reasons to diss their parents world: globalisation & corporate responsibility, war & terrorism, patriotic & religious extremism, climate change, censorship, authoritarianism, intellectual property vs artistic creativity. All these issues have to greater or lesser extent been brewing up for the past couple of years, along with (at least in the UK anyway) a general search for "the next big thing" in music.

Also, I think this thread is a bit US-centric in it's view of rock, which I suppose is understandable because that's where 9/11 occured. But elsewhere in "the West" there has been some (comparatively small scale) experience already of what 'transgression' can lead to. The original UK explosion of punk played out in the immediate aftermath of the two most horrific IRA terrorist attacks against civilians on the UK mainland (The Guilford and Birmingham pub bombings) as well as an increasingly powerful extreme right-wing. (You might notice the UK punks stopped wearing swastikas pretty sharpish as that happened.) Which probably explains why a lot of UK punk was a bit less self-indulgent and appeared more concened about "issues", which became even more pronounced with the post-punk (c 1978-81) stuff, some of which is extremely politically motivated, often in reaction to the Cold War. (Check out the number of "bomb" related songs!)

Dunno if that means a proper US versh of the UK Punk/Post-punk cycle, but if all those rock bands start doing a Fred Durst and convert to a "Love is All You Need" type conformist stance, then that's going to appear even less relevant than Andrew WK party-rock in this new and complex world climate, and somethings gotta give.

Perhaps what I'm thinking of is the end of self-concious self-centred rock, but it's eventual replacement with a more relevant and righteous "rebel-rock" attitude within many strands of music. (rock, rap, urban, garage, etc. ?) Or at the other extreme, a cynical caricarture of party-rock similar to the "dance till the bomb drops" elements of some early 80s UK music. Meanwhile the mainstream becomes even more fluffier than normal, completely failing to halt it's slide in record sales... Well, that's one possible outcome, anyway! Old Fart!!!!!

Similarly, worst part of "prison industrial" mvt. = horrendous "slam" poetry?

1. Dunno, maybe this "rock = self-centred" is more of a US thing, (Tho I don't know how Crass and RATM fits into that picture.) and so might be badly affectected by post 9/11, but I think there's has been always an element of "social comment" in UK rock and pop music, at least since the mid-60s beat-boom. Which might sound like folk to you, and it's probably true- there were a fair amount of folk elements in the music. (And actually I'd argue the same for a lot of US music as well- I mean, people didn't exactly ignore the likes of Dylan, did they?) Not that I'm saying everything was totally atruistic - a lot of the "comment" was effectively politicised "I Wanna Be Me" stuff- but in a lot of it, especially punk and afterwards, a great deal of self-love elements were defined more in terms of "me against this unjust world" as opposed to "me me me", and whichever way you look at it, it's a bit less self-centered. Also, don't forget a lot of punk was in direct opposition to self-indulgence in music and musician self-love. Furthermore, it's not as though rock was this first to offer "the freedom of music without use-value". It wasn't even the first to hit the mass media. (What about jazz?) Party music has existed throughout the ages. "Freedom of music without use-value" was probably invented not with bangin' Rock, but with, erm, banging rocks!!
2. Stopping the swastikas wasn't the only thing UK punks did in response to the likes of the National Front et al. Ever heard of the original UK Rock Against Racism? Rather successful it was, and it probably gave an impetus to all those political records I mentioned above...

That's really depressing. I wish you wouldn't say it.

Y'all sure about that? If anything I think my own feelings have gotten more intense with time.

Also, dave q is indeed the wierd poet of the apocalypse.

I'd agree that feelings grow more complex, but by "flare brighter" I mean: when we are seventeen, and we hear a great song (I remember: hearing Cindytalk's "It's Luxury" when I was eighteen, for example), we don't make a note to put it on the next mix tape we make. We make a mix tape RIGHT NOW because we feel like everybody must hear this incredible song RIGHT NOW and we will not be satisfied until everybody is having the exact same amazing experience that we are having RIGHT NOW, etc. etc. Wherefore as adults we may enjoy subtler musics, perhaps at deeper levels, but seldom achieve the raw-nerve reactions in the immediacy of the moment that were our daily bread when we were young and pretty. Your depressing friend John

Where and when did this imagined period of "community and social responsibility" exist? In the East? In Russia perhaps, during the Cold War, under the brutally selfless Soviets? Or in the very un-corporate and anti-capitalist Afghanistan under the Taliban? Are those values to be found in the Congo, Somalia, or any other Socialist basket-case around the world?

Lastly, you assume selfishness and profiteering is a bad thing. Humans are a selfish and profiteering species. Fact of life.