TS: kraftwerk v. led zeppelin

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play that funky music, 70s white boys!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 30 October 2004 02:16 (twenty-one years ago)

the bicycle vs. the hindenburg

― motown modown (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 30 October 2004 02:20 (twenty-one years ago)

2 of the most awesome opening moments of song: those tinkling synths of "europe endless" and that trebly proto-ramones guitar riffing on "the immigrant song."

2 of the best conceits wr2 lead singers: a singer who thinks he's a robot and a singer who thinks that he's a hobbit motherfucker.

dumbing down stockhausen, varese, and krautrock v. dumbing down the mississippi blues & epic-length songs.

which do you prefer -- the robot from the jetsons or cthulu? and would either dance to the music?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 30 October 2004 02:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Nothing overtly Satanic about Kraftwerk. Thus, Zep wins.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 30 October 2004 02:37 (twenty-one years ago)

but then again, there was nothing covertly soviet about led zeppelin (check out the man machine cover). i ain't picking a winner on that, though.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 30 October 2004 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

this is a good battle

― astroblaster (astroblaster), Saturday, 30 October 2004 03:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Stairway to Heaven certainly seems to go on forever, but Autobahn is longer than any individual Zeppelin song, Therefore, Kraftwerk has the advantage in terms of endurance,

― Dr Benway (dr benway), Saturday, 30 October 2004 07:32 (twenty-one years ago)

This isn't a debate, it's a lifestyle choice. Thusly: Kraftwerk.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Saturday, 30 October 2004 07:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Kraftwerk cos they are not fucking awful screechy shit.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 30 October 2004 10:52 (twenty-one years ago)

with embarassing dungeons and dragons lyrics

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 30 October 2004 10:52 (twenty-one years ago)

kraftwerk vs. led zeppelin

kraftwerk destroys in this case.

― tricky (disco stu), Saturday, 30 October 2004 11:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Kraftwerk, but c'mon Zeppelin's got Hobbits and Crowley!

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 30 October 2004 12:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Kraftwerk vs Sabbath would actually be an interesting question for me, and somehow seems more appropriate. BTW Dr Benway, the live version of "Dazed and Confused" goes on for 26 minutes, thus beating "Autobahn" IIRC.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 30 October 2004 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

was this thread inspired by that shitehawk uk music hall of fame thing? (led zep were included in the "best bands of the seventies" episode and, er, kraftwerk weren't?)

i nearly put a brick through the telly when i saw that.

led zep: big perms, double-neck guitars, misogyny, being twats
kraftwerk: teutonic chic, taking their studio on tour, asexuality, being gods

no contest, izzere?

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Saturday, 30 October 2004 21:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Kraftwerk inspired more good music, Zep were the better group.

― The Good Dr. Bill (Andrew Unterberger), Saturday, 30 October 2004 21:42 (twenty-one years ago)

"dumbing down"?

― MC Transmaniacon (natepatrin), Saturday, 30 October 2004 21:45 (twenty-one years ago)

BTW Dr Benway, the live version of "Dazed and Confused" goes on for 26 minutes, thus beating "Autobahn" IIRC.
I've got a 40 minute version of "Autobahn" from a 1974 concert! Kraftwerk reclaim the crown! But will they keep it? That's a challenge to YOU, the Zep superfans.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Saturday, 30 October 2004 21:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Kraftwerk vs. Black Sabbath would be better. Either way, I love all these bands

― sometimes i like to pretend i am very small and warm (ex machina), Saturday, 30 October 2004 21:46 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, MIR, but does "Autobahn", in any of its lengths, contain a guitar solo, like a real one with whole-tone bends and pull-offs and pentatonics an' shit, hmmm? Song length is a moot point otherwise. Can't argue with that, now can you?

(But, er, any way I could get a copy of that off you sometime?)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 30 October 2004 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

does "Autobahn", in any of its lengths, contain a guitar solo, like a real one with whole-tone bends and pull-offs and pentatonics an' shit, hmmm?
ROCKIST !!!!!!!! :)
(copy: no problem)

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Saturday, 30 October 2004 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Any real guitar solo would include the first four bars of "Jingle Bells" with a hesitant and incorrect last note anyway, so it hardly matters here.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Saturday, 30 October 2004 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

kraftwerk

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 30 October 2004 22:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I have to go with Zepppelin for sheer hugeness and listenability, although early Kraftwerk (Tone Float and the first two albums) is amazing.

― steve hise, Saturday, 30 October 2004 22:46 (twenty-one years ago)

ralf & florian is better even than those three, I think. i mean, "tanzmusik" is like the greatest song ever.

― Ian John50n (orion), Saturday, 30 October 2004 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

That one came out right after, right? I should check that one out. I'm not that into Autobahn and Trans Europe Express so I've been leery about how far I'll go.

― steve hise, Saturday, 30 October 2004 22:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Autobahn is the worst Kraftwerk album. Truly.

― sometimes i like to pretend i am very small and warm (ex machina), Saturday, 30 October 2004 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Florian Schneider's arpeggiated flauting a lot, and the early Kraftwerk records (before they'd gotten so concerned with the consistency of their ideas / sounds) are some of my favourites. Autobahn is a great record! I like their later music as well, but don't get nearly as excited about it. The idea of a remastered box set with redone cover art makes me laugh a bit, and I like the idea of them doing a concept album about bicycle racing very much, but I find it a little draggy musically. I used to own "Physical Graffiti" and the fourth Led Zeppelin album - I listened to both quite a lot at the time, but haven't felt like hearing them again in the past sixteen years. I'm going with Kraftwerk by many kilometres.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Saturday, 30 October 2004 23:03 (twenty-one years ago)

TS: Led Zeppelin vs. No Doubt

― results not typical (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 30 October 2004 23:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks for the tip about Ralf & Florian. That's a pretty good record.

― steve hise, Monday, 1 November 2004 01:08 (twenty-one years ago)

you're quite welcome! i assume you've heard the Neu! records too? Those are in the same vein.. very worthwhile.

― Ian John50n (orion), Monday, 1 November 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I've heard the Neu records. I like those, the first one the most.

― steve hise, Monday, 1 November 2004 01:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Kraftwerk, cuz they sound like they have cleaner feet.

― peepee (peepee), Monday, 1 November 2004 01:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I like IV and Houses Of The Holy more than any Kraftwerk album and I probably hate Radio Activity more than any Zep album so there ya go. I don't get people who worship either band's entire ouvre.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 November 2004 02:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I agree with your first sentence.

This TS vs (Philip Glass vs Diamanda Galas)?

What about Kraftwerk vs Deep Purple? Motorik Hammond rock vs motorik Moog-pop; post-Romantic anal guitar arpeggiation vs post-minimalist anal synth arpeggiation; atomic fission vs internal combustion; "Highway Star" vs "Autobahn"; "Spacelab" vs "Space Truckin'"; etc.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 1 November 2004 02:36 (twenty-one years ago)

haha post-Romantic vs New Romantic?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 1 November 2004 02:38 (twenty-one years ago)

ok, yeah it's not that I don't "get" them per se. I just can't relate.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 November 2004 02:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't get people who worship either band's entire ouvre.

Reallly? I can. I mean, as hackneyed a concept as being a frothing Zepophile is, there is a lot there to get obsessed about (if you're of the disposition to get obsessed about such things, I mean). Kraftwerk, by contrast, are an equally intriguing outfit, although they lack a bit of the personality of Zeppelin (though they do retain an enigmatic mystique all their own).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 1 November 2004 02:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah I can see how their respective shticks might fascinate, but I just don't find generic kraftwerk or generic zep songs that intriguing, though their highlights are outstanding. I'm definitely more affected by the finest Zep and I'm definitely more grateful for the bands that Kraftwerk has influenced. Zep's best hasn't really been matched and I think loads of bands did something terrific with Kraftwerk's blueprint.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 November 2004 02:53 (twenty-one years ago)

generic zep songs

Does such a thing exist?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 1 November 2004 02:54 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry, i meant mediocre

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 November 2004 02:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, what do you consider mediocre? The point is obv that I don't really think of any of their songs as mediocre songs per se (at least up to and including Physical Graffiti). I think there's something distinctive, memorable, and worthwhile in them all, in the guitar layering, the rhythm, the melodies, and usually all three. (With, say, AC/DC on the other hand, I think that many album tracks are totally mediocre and uninteresting and more or less interchangeable with any randomly chosen hair band album track). Often LZ tracks that don't stand out as much for me as some of their others, like "Misty Mountain Hop" or "Living Loving Maid" or "Your Time Is Gonna Come", still have this quality and seem to me much better than most rock songs - and often, they're ones that other people list as favourites. And all those songs do have something in them to love. I mean, come now man, if you're willing to stand by entire albums by Poison and Warrant, what's there to deny here?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:33 (twenty-one years ago)

With, say, AC/DC on the other hand, I think that many album tracks are totally mediocre and uninteresting and more or less interchangeable with any randomly chosen hair band album track

talk to the hand, prog-boy

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I can see where you're coming from, but a lot of Led Zep's "interesting" stuff bores the hell out of me where nearly every AC/DC song '76-'79 is full-on adrenaline. I hate "No Quarter" for instance.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:37 (twenty-one years ago)

just keep in mind I'm gonna be the last guy on ILX to note an awesome time change on a track.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I like IV and Houses Of The Holy more than any Kraftwerk album and I probably hate Radio Activity more than any Zep album so there ya go.
I've always felt Kraftwerk's most looming weaknesses is the lack of a full-on blowaway album, a "Pet Sounds"-like peak that people can point to and say "that's the masterpiece". Even with bands like the Velvets or the Beatles (or Zep), their fans commonly argue to the death over which album was their best. Nobody really does this with Kraftwerk. Arguably, they never made a true 5-star album.
Having said that, "Radioactivity" is criminally underrated (BoC and their folktronic clones have been stealing from it their entire careers), and

LZ IV + Houses

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey, that didn't come out for some reason

LZ IV + Houses

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:48 (twenty-one years ago)

only song I can stomach on Radio Activity is "Antenna"

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:48 (twenty-one years ago)

"Computer World"! I dunno I think Kwerk are a few things to a few diff groups, each have their choice of Lp, etc

― Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:49 (twenty-one years ago)

WTF???

LZ IV (plus) Houses (much much much much much less than) Computer World (plus) TEE

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Jesus A. you don't like "Ohm Sweet Ohm"? Are you the devil?

― Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Gotcha.

2xpost. I actually only heard Radioactivity like 5 years ago. I didn't like it much then. I love BoC (and BOC, maybe bringing things full circle) so maybe I should try again sometime.

Oh 6xpost now. MIR you're fucking insane. The fact that I haven't heard all of Computer World doesn't affect this at all.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:51 (twenty-one years ago)

As "influence" goes, I have to say that the few bands who would lose in a TS with GnR for me include the Pet Shop Boys and Duran Duran, prob New Order too so LZ wins even there. Points for Joy Division and BoC though.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 1 November 2004 03:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey, I like "Houses" (my fave Zep album") and IV a lot. OK, I'll maybe grant Houses > Computer World (it's close though). Then, "TEE" (the song) and "When the Levee Breaks" cancel each other (too close to call). But the rest of "TEE" (the album) completely mop the floor with the rest of IV. It's not even close.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 1 November 2004 04:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Whatever, I haven't listened to enough Kraftwerk (or listened to Kraftwerk enough, maybe more to the point) to actually attempt some sort of meaningful comparison. Which is why I didn't actually try to answer the question until you forced me;) Autobahn and their live setup are cool.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 1 November 2004 04:19 (twenty-one years ago)

(I have heard TEE and most of CW but they've never been anything I personally listened to on my own.)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 1 November 2004 04:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I can see where you're coming from, but a lot of Led Zep's "interesting" stuff bores the hell out of me where nearly every AC/DC song '76-'79 is full-on adrenaline. I hate "No Quarter" for instance.

You really can't compare Zep to AC/DC, though. AC/DC are ultimately a stripped-down, boozey, full-throttled rock'n'roll bar band who perform songs rather exclusively about getting loud, laid and loaded with wheels, whiskey and women. This is not to say that Zeppelin didn't excell at same, but there were certainly countless moments in their catalog where they aspired to something other than that. "No Quarter" is a fucking amazing bit of mystical malevolence that AC/DC couldn't come near if they tried -- though they never would, as that's simply not something they do. Bottom line: BON SCOTT DIDN'T SPEND HIS TIME READING TOLKIEN OR PUTTING FLOWERS IN HIS HAIR.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 1 November 2004 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Led Zeppelin = a hogshead of absynthe
AC/DC = a tallboy of beer

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 1 November 2004 13:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I've always felt Kraftwerk's most looming weaknesses is the lack of a full-on blowaway album, a "Pet Sounds"-like peak that people can point to and say "that's the masterpiece". Even with bands like the Velvets or the Beatles (or Zep), their fans commonly argue to the death over which album was their best. Nobody really does this with Kraftwerk. Arguably, they never made a true 5-star album.

I figured Autobahn and Trans-Europe Express were both loved by all people as much as they are by me and mine. Maybe not, though. And as discussed earlier, the first three Kraftwerk albums, though not perfect or thematically/stylistically cohesive, are still sonically mindblowing. Saying Kraftwerk were produced a five-star album is, to me, really shocking. Really, really shocking. On the other hand, I only own one Zeppelin album, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

― Ian John50n (orion), Monday, 1 November 2004 21:32 (twenty-one years ago)

What's wrong with being sexy?

― 57 7th (calstars), Monday, 1 November 2004 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Does anyone here remember laughter?

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Monday, 1 November 2004 23:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, it was kinda funny.

― Ian John50n (orion), Monday, 1 November 2004 23:23 (twenty-one years ago)

But the rest of "TEE" (the album) completely mop the floor with the rest of IV.

hogwash.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 November 2004 23:23 (twenty-one years ago)

"I've always felt Kraftwerk's most looming weaknesses is the lack of a full-on blowaway album, a "Pet Sounds"-like peak that people can point to and say "that's the masterpiece". Even with bands like the Velvets or the Beatles (or Zep), their fans commonly argue to the death over which album was their best. Nobody really does this with Kraftwerk. Arguably, they never made a true 5-star album."

Computer World and the first three albums, as Ian said, all qualify as 5-star works. Hell, Organisation's Tone Float belongs in there, too.

― Dave Segal (Da ve Segal), Tuesday, 2 November 2004 04:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know about "Tone Float" (I don't know about stars, either, so make of that what you will) - I really like it, but it sounds like their ideas weren't nearly as together as on the Kraftwerk ones. The side-long piece, my favourite, I don't find that interesting for several minutes in the beginning. I don't mind so much, because it seems like part of hearing people improvise is that you can imagine how things might not happen, but the next albums are something else. Those sound like people firing on all cylinders with microphones in their clothes.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Tuesday, 2 November 2004 06:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Tone Float's "Milk Rock" = much-sampled, unfuckingbelievably funky groove + unholy electric flute emissions + ferocious wah-wah organ. There's a reason Kevin Martin programmed it right before Miles Davis' "Rated X" on the indispensable Jazz Satellites comp.

― Dave Segal (Da ve Segal), Tuesday, 2 November 2004 06:54 (twenty-one years ago)

dumbing down stockhausen, varese, and krautrock

Dumbing down??!?!?!??!?! WTF?

OK, MIR, but does "Autobahn", in any of its lengths, contain a guitar solo, like a real one with whole-tone bends and pull-offs and pentatonics an' shit, hmmm?

Ah, but it has got a guitar solo. So there!

I've always felt Kraftwerk's most looming weaknesses is the lack of a full-on blowaway album, a "Pet Sounds"-like peak that people can point to and say "that's the masterpiece". Arguably, they never made a true 5-star album.

"Trans-Europe Express", "Man Machine" and "Computer World" are all 5 star and the rest ain't too shabby either.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 2 November 2004 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Personally, I think "TEE" is a flawless record.

I guess when you're consistently brilliant (i.e. now obvious one or two album peak) then the peaks can appear less prominent.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 3 November 2004 03:40 (twenty-one years ago)

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