Dealing with Jerk Venues

im pretty aware of who hurting's talking about, so i was trying to, in veiled terms, discuss it.

you know, if you think a venue isnt treating you right, there's nothing preventing you from playing their space[s] again. PP wouldnt exist if we didnt hear similar complaints from our friends in bands.

but i dont think its a smart idea to say, "we're never going to play with them again." what if a really good show opportunity comes around? whose foot are you shooting, then?

i think its important to be very sensible and cautious when dealing with promoters who dont treat you right. if you treat yourselves as if you are valuable, promoters will eventually fall in line and fly right. remember: without you, they are nothing!

While I'm sure Hurting has been patient and has probably worked hard and played enough shows to deserve a break that's not the bottom of a bill, there ARE bands that I have dealt with (who I will not name) who seem to demand something more bottom of the bill a bit "early" in their career shall we say, and their excuse mainly is "we are very serious about what we do, we do this to contribute to the community, we have day jobs, it's tough for us to get together to play an early show only to see an empty room and have five bored kids show up and play pinball next to us, etc.".

What happened is, I booked Black Heart Procession at a small ages place along with another friends' band, and two local bands (in da 0.C. of the C./-\) were going to open. My booking co-hort comes up to me two weeks before the show and says "hey, guess what, Julie Doiron who used to be in Eric's Trip wants to get on the bill as well!". So, given that she's also pretty well known, we decied it would be best to stick her and her band in the middle of the bill, with the two San Diego bands on top (Aspects of Physics being the other SD band), and the two local bands in O.C. being at the bottom.

The two local bands absolutely FLIPPED when they heard this, and went ballistic on me calling me a shitty promoter in the community.. Hearing about all the comments second hand from friends was really awkward. i mean, they went from being bottom on a four band bill to being bottom on a five band bill. It was soooo overblown, in my opinion.

I realize how tough it can be to be a local band who wants to play a local venue and always get thrown at the bottom of the bill because the touring bands get dibs on higher spots on the bill because, well, they're touring and they're likely to get a higher draw due to projections of higher popularity, etc. balancing out the fairness in that respect, etc. at the same time, touring bands don't usually have enough of a local cache of "town friends" to bring to the show to support them whereas local bands do. Sure, it's slightly evil that those local band supporters do end up paying more for the OTHER bands than their friends, but they need it more, etc. etc.

Basically, I think it's just a matter of (dare I say) being a good local shmoozer and being very, very patient before your band can become well known in your town and get higher billing positions. This is a reason a lot of bands experience the "more popular outside your hometown" phenomenon.. those bands who can't get anywhere in their town so they hook up with friends in neighboring cities, whereas some bands experience the "very popular ONLY in your hometown" phenomenon as well, as they get comfortable with the very rich pool of local boys and girls who give them every hot spot on every hip lineup. (This was notorious in L.A. In 1996, you could not escape an indie show without seeing the Polar Goldie Cats second to touring headliner, later the Radar Brothers, etc.)

There are many other factors as well.. but to answer Hurting's question (the Hurting O.G. who started this thread that is), I would just stay confident, perhaps gather your friends together to do something more DIY in response... if the venue scene is small enough, people will know, and wee all know that all bands that live in a decent-venue-stripped scene are ALWAYS hunting for new venues, no matter what the capacity and environment is, which can play to your advantage greatly in the near future when you want to play a show at other places.

(BTW, that show I referenced above with all the drama all turned out ok at the end, because the entire bill had an audience the entire night. All that overreaction for nothing. Everybody hugged at the end. Great night over all. Just goes to show... [/rosanne rosannadanna])

Dude, I assume you are joking, but just in case, I absolutely was not talking about you guys.

Well, yes, if I may say so, we've played the town regularly for three years and have at least something of a draw. I mean, maybe I'm overreacting, because I guess every other band on the bill had too, but they could have at least let us know more than two hours before the show when we'd been asking for two weeks.

True, but Philly ain't LA. LA is also known to have clubs that charge you to play there, at least so I hear.

Back to L.A., yeah, it being one of the entertainment industry capitals of the world, Los Angeles REALLY suffers from that attitude and lack of passion for what it supports. People rarely run very successful venues in L.A. because they are supporting the arts, but moreso to get a profit. The pay-to-play culture aside, L.A. preys on people who move there who are "definitely gonna make it, man!"

Hollywood really is a horrible place to play if you don't know anybody there... you pretty much have to contact the smaller art shacks in the surrounding 'burb towns, really. Unless you have a semi-well known booking agent, forget Hollywood or central/west L.A., period.

(aside from The Smell, which is an on/off operation at most, sadly... there is Club Good Hurt, though, but I don't know how many shows they put on, and the staff there is very "pro" too. I was almost not allowed to come in to see TEH CHAKI perform because I had to put my backpack "in my car" even though I didn't HAVE a car when I was visiting. Fuckers.)

hurting -- how much of a draw do you think your band has? how many people would qualify, in your mind, as a strong draw [in philly]? do you think your draw relies on the billing? just curious.

Technically, I didn't. My co-hort did. But I've seen six to eight bands on a bill before (granted, mostly hardcore acts with short sets.), with nary a complaint, being backstage with the friends, promoter, and bands in question. *shrug*

Many venues will book a long series of unrelated bands on the same bill for cheap enough cover, knowing that each crowd will shift in and out for each band, but still generated a big head count and money pool at the end.

Again, it depends on the city or town.

philadelphia is a beast of a different color when it comes to live music, where four band bills can sometimes be pushing the limit. in terms of plain parade, we really dislike doing them -- more equipment to deal with, the door split is less for each band [we split the door evenly & will not work with guarantees], etc etc. so if we can do a three band bill, we're thrilled. that gives us the opportunity to book two good locals with an out of town band and give everyone a great show.

But yeah, that was a real sore spot, that show. (Not to mention the World Inferno/Friendship band sprayed lighter fluid and did pyrotechnics during the show.. in a SMALL WOODEN SHACK!... I'm very surprised we didn't get a Warwick type situation that night.. it was awful.)

oh here's some video from my phone:

http://herjazz.org/movies/clockcleaner.mov

Somebody decided it'd be a good idea to put a 2 x 4 in the fireplace, which caused the bar to quickly fill with woodsmoke, setting off the fire alarms. The last band (Some Action, I think) was determined to play through it, but we had to cut 'em short to air out the layer of smoke that had filled the place.

Oops.