A Love Supreme : most over-estimated record in jazz

It's good, but I think it's one of those records people latch onto because it has "hooks" so to speak. There's that simple, catchy "Da-dum da-dum" that repeats over and over again. There's the whole spirituality dimension that gives people something to relate to it (like programatic classical music). It's a very good album, don't get me wrong.

I listen to Crescent a lot more often, though.

Forks -- yes, I like Ole Coltrane a lot too. I haven't heard Black Pearls. I also really like John Coltrane Quartet Plays and Transition.

The only one I really find to be genuinely overrated is Blue Train.

OTM

Yeah, and also that would be a pretty bad criticism of me because my music collection is like 20% jazz.

Hopefully everyone who has mentioned "Live at the Village Vanguard" is talking about or has heard the 4CD box set. One CD is JUST NOT ENOUGH. I think I'm on record on ILX (probably the Elvin Jones RIP thread) as saying that the rendition of "India" on Disc 2 is the greatest jazz recording I've ever heard, but in case I'm not, there it is again.

xpost don't bag on brubeck.

So let's turn this thread into hosannas for the Vanguard box -- god, it's exhilarating!

Kind of Blue, I think, is a different issue entirely...I'd say a good 40% of my collection is jazz, and I have a good amount of miles' recordings, but KoB remains consistently listend-to to this day.

Wrong

a year ago i got ascension and i find it much more fascinating than ALS. it is not a record to love, it is pretty dissonant and going on for a long time but extremely powerful. and there is a communion kind of thing going on with all the ten or so solos and the others joining in after a while.

this week i got giant steps. and i like it a lot. amazing sax play on the title, the speed of the chord successions and the immaculate sound coltrane still produces. some phantastic lyrical compositions like syeeda's song flute.

not sure what to buy next. either meditations or interstellar space.

I think it's "Interstellar Space" for you, young man

Grachan Moncur III is playing this year's Vision Festival with Byard Lancaster and Bobby Hutcherson. I'm definitely gonna see that. I'm so bummed I missed his shows with Jackie McLean in 2004.

is there any album or concert recording where the father coltrane, the son sanders and the ghost ayler play together? a little search on the web only yielded this. a tape of a 1966 concert in the new york philharmonic hall which is in the possession of the trane family! i am only starting to get into free-jazz, so please excuse this probably stupid question.

It's funny, I've never had much interest in jazz, finding even earlier Coltrane a bit stodgy for my tastes. But this morning I was putting together a mix of Sly, Funkadelic, Stooges, Can, Beefheart, and James Brown, and heard JB shout at the end of "Super Bad" to "blow me some 'Trane, brotha". So I decided to try some Coltrane for the mix, looked at what I had, and put on Meditations because of its date (1965, pretty late in the day). So maybe this is the right way for me to find my way into jazz, finally...

there have been rumors over the last couple of years that this will be officially released. i knew someone who was at that concert; as soon as trane's set started (with ayler and pharoah), half the audience left. then trane started playing the theme to "my favorite things," which brought some of the audience back. then they left again during the solos. my friend was glad so many people left, as he got to sit much closer. also on the bill that night were coleman hawkins, stan getz, and sonny rollins; it was billed as the "titans of tenor" concert. it is the only known recording of coltrane, sanders, and ayler together.

The second concert is more "free", and has sanders on it so it should be your bag. the first gets my vote for eric dolphy ripping shit up, chasin' the train and, most of all, impressions.

The first one is better. But if you prefer his free shit by all means check out the second.

India (third set, fourth disc) from the '61 shows is unbelievable, and probably one of my favorite soprano Coltrane recordings. Highly recommended.

Re: '66 disc, the highlight for me is a killer bass solo (real solo, w/o the rest of the band!) as an intro to My Favorite Things.

That's quite a statement, esp. wrt Duke.

Jeff Parker in new Vandermark project Powerhouse Sound: YES

I want to hear this band!

That's quite a statement, esp. wrt Duke.

yeah, and probably deserves a thread of its own. but... the whole Duke/Trane album normally gets underrated as a curiosity item, a date set up by bob thiele because coltrane had fucked up his reed (like the rocket with his tips) and duke was between contracts. but this one song changed the whole way coltrane recorded (duke forced him to go with one take rather than re-recording endlessly), and this intersection just happened to produce something magical - i mean maybe there's a gap in my collection where i'm missing where ellington came up with that ostinato (that "indelible vamp" giddings calls it) but it's just... you know, the ideal of what a jazz ballad, what music should be.

it's interesting because you can hear coltrane is listening with the same intensity he normally plays with - he was a great listener (got downbeat pieces where he's blind testing new releases and picking out bassists, drummers, 'bonists by name etc. - compare to miles's "i don't listen to jazz" shtick of the period, or that episode where they called his ass out when he claimed he could "hear" the difference between a white player and a black player (he couldn't of course, but I bet Trane could have told them exactly who the player was)) but i get the impression Tyner left the group because Trane stopped listening to him - like tyner would lay out and trane wouldn't even notice until he came back in to signal the ending.

anyway, the song is exciting as far as coltrane is concerned because he's playing within himself as far as no sheets of sound, screeching, split notes etc. are concerned, but outside himself as far as trying to go with what his "accompanist" is feeding him.

Count me as someone who loves the singing.
-- deej

Has anybody besides me ever been weird enough to throw on Meditations and sing 'along' to "The Father And The Sun And The Holy Ghost"? (Or, at least IMAGINE how it would sound with Coltrane singing it?) Because the ascending eleven-note motif matches PRECISELY the eleven-syllable song title! Was that just a coincidence; or did Trane originally intend to add vocals, all chanting the title in unison with the sax parts? We'll never know...

-- js ([email protected]), April 28th, 2006.

So I guess you know where I come down on this thread. I really resist the phrase "overrated". Frampton Comes Alive is overrated. Citi Movement is overrated. ALS is something that everyone should own, whether or not they ever play it.

I like the points made about Ellington/Coltrane. Another underrated album would be Ellington/Mingus/Roach Money Jungle.

I know that it is unlikely that posters upthread will revisit, but I'd like to hear some substantiation for On The Corner "is better than" (another phrase that is weird) Bitches Brew. I just don't understand.

ALS stands the test of time quite well, I think, and the connections between that and Black Unity are fairly evident. I'm not sure what the hate is about. From the opening wash of Jones's cymbals and the opening call by Coltrane to the final fade, this is a well conceived and well executed piece of music.

For those who wanted to put more players on this disc, you may be referring to the short bit of Archie Shepp that appears on an alternate take released with the deluxe remastered double disk anniversary edition. That bit is certainly not worth getting excited about.

On ALS, each musician gets an extended showcase that is integral to the piece, a change in form from the typical jazz of head, tradinng fours, laying out for a solo, restating the theme, solo, chorus, solo, return to head. While quite a bit of innteresting music is made in that form, I think it also allowed for a lot of less-than-eloquent musicians to solo just because the form demands it. Live, I have seen musicians literally freeze up for lack of annything to say and I have seen others blather about with nothing to say for an inordinately long time. What does this have to do with ALS? Imo, at 32 minutes running time, the piece doesn't fall to that sort of jazz hokery.

http://www.openculture.com/2013/09/john-coltranes-handwritten-outline-for-his-masterpiece-a-love-supreme.html

wasn't sure which coltrane topic to post on, but i was wondering if there were any thoughts on this yet?

https://www.discogs.com/master/2345266-John-Coltrane-A-Love-Supreme-Live-In-Seattle

it is...good. Pretty lo-fi.

yeah, i had it on in the background and it seemed okay. i always thought for sure they would give a standalone release to the antibes set that was on the second disc of this reissue, but nope. it makes me wonder just how much else they have in "the vault" that could see a legitimate release.

(ftr: i won't be purchasing it. just doesn't seem very essential. the antibes set is way better and this feels a little like barrel scraping, unfortunately.)

thread title has always annoyed me, wtf does "most over-estimated record" mean?

someone thought it was a double album?

I wrote about it for Stereogum as part of a roundup of a whole bunch of versions of ALS (John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane, Carlos Santana/John McLaughlin, etc.). I like it a lot.

ethan iverson wrote about it…among other things, he points out that this band's activity in the period in which ALS the original work was frenzied, and while its considered one of the most scrutinized works in the history of african american improvised music since like the 70s, none of those guys would have had a notion that that this one work was going to be that major. So while Trane knows what's going on as they're playing it, it doesn't seem like Jones or Tyner remember the work as recorded all that well… this is not like playing "Cherokee" or something…

https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/coltrane-love-supreme/

i recall similar conversation in the ashley kahn love supreme book. elvin jones was quoted as telling a fan at the time, "if you like our other albums, you'll like this one too."

guess he kinda knew what was going on lol.

In that same book, a contemporary fan who went on to become a well-known jazz musician (don't remember who), says "we liked A Love Supreme, but we were always most interested in what he was going to do next".

"Flawed" and "over-estimated" my ass.

I think this release still very much tells an interesting story about Coltrane and his times. The album has a very young Carlos Ward (still a local Seattle guy) getting thrown in the deep end!

I really love this new Live one, I can understand some of the complaints that Coltrane himself is a little low, but everyone else sounds so good that it feels like a minor complaint. It's always just such a joy to hear this group playing these songs.

Coltrane (and Sanders and Ward) are so low in the “mix” (it’s just a 2-track recording) that I found it frustrating having to aurally squint to hear what they’re doing. Jones and Tyner are front-and-center, and it’s actually one of the better recordings of Jones from that time, live or studio. This definitely should’ve been released, no question, but I prefer the 1971/1994 live release…for that matter, I actually prefer the decidedly lower-fi The Olatunji Concert: as distorted as it is, Coltrane’s extremely forward in that “mix.”

Honestly, the prominence of piano and rhythm over horns is one of the big selling points, to me. Tyner used to get buried, especially in 1965 and after - it was one of the main reasons he quit! So to really hear what he was doing in this kind of situation is fantastic.

Good piece by Iverson. I haven't had the right moment to listen to this but I am very much looking forward to it.

No question, hearing Tyner clearly in this context — for once — is great. And I feel like I’m hearing the full breadth and depth of Elvin’s kit for the first time (apart from the one time I saw him live). But because Live In Seattle is one of my favorite records (by anyone), my expectations for this, and what I’d imagined it would sound like, were probably irrationally high. Also, the basses are mostly inaudible apart from the duo spots, which are fascinating. Trane should’ve worked with two basses more.

xp

this new live set is INCREDIBLE

I haven't even gotten to part 3 yet, mind you. but this is very different from the other live version of a love supreme i've heard.

Honestly, the prominence of piano and rhythm over horns is one of the big selling points, to me. Tyner used to get buried, especially in 1965 and after - it was one of the main reasons he quit! So to really hear what he was doing in this kind of situation is fantastic.

otm. also i'm biased because i listen to things with drummer eras (particularly jazz) but it is really cool to get to hear jones up a bit higher in the mix. i could see how that would make it sound off-balance to others, but to me it's thrilling to hear coltrane on the left side on my headphones, mixed hard to the size, with the drums and bass near the middle, the piano off to the right. it feels like you're in the drummer's seat, witnessing coltrane going off with some perspective, as a balance to the interplay with tyner's piano.

and they are really, really extending these songs. this is like if you could get a bonus deluxe edition of an album, only instead of adding on some extra takes or leftover songs, you get this reinvigorated edition with all these additional passages and variations on the theme that perfectly fit

This is powerful & beautiful, the bootleg quality only make it more impressive in a way (because we've all heard gig tapes with similar sound quality, and much less transcendent playing). Resolution is so intense.

The way Elvin plays super fast tempos (like Pursuance) is like a magic trick to me, he's almost never stating the full cymbal pattern, but it still has that constant circular motion thing and is in the pocket.

ok I'm going in

Elvin is massive on this (I mean, he's always massive, but there are some insanely powerful moments here)