TS: Period Instruments (or not) in Classical music

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inspired by the baroque thread...

which do you prefer to hear on your recordings of bach, mozart, buxtehude, etc?

I prefer period instruments. And along with that, as small an ensemble as possible.

― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:13 (twenty-one years ago)

the trend toward using period instruments in classical music (and the contemporaneous interest in "early music") is a really healthy one, although i think it involves as much imaginative speculation as historical recreation.

it's fascinating to imagine how bach might have heard his own music.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

actually i find this whole subject completely fascinating, is there a lot of literature on this trend and its attendants implications for musical historiography and musical appreciation?

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't mind Gould playing Bach on the piano but I like it when people like Les Arts Florissants try to let us hear what, conceivably, the composer had in mind by using period instruments. My only question is whether such insturments sounded like that back then?

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

that's an unanswerable question in some essential sense, though. does any recording "sound" like the experience of a chamber concert of the 17th century?

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i do not know about the literature, as all i know about it comes from CD recording notes.

I do agree with what i read once, that the music of bach tends to sound good on any instrument. even on electric guitar.

― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

even on tabla.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

even on banjo.

― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

http://bwmodular.crosswinds.net/images/sleeves/wc_switched_on_bach.gif

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree Amateurist. I think my point stems from the realization once, watching a period film where the action was occuring in the 18th century that the venerable looking architecture of a nobleman's new house would have been very cutting edge and modern to people who saw it then and thus experienced very differently by his contemporaries than the way experience it. Above I was simply wondering if their age has actually changed the sound they produce.

multi x-post

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:33 (twenty-one years ago)

have you seen "topsy-turvy"? how about the scene where they remark upon the amazing new invention, the pen with its own ink reservoir? i always think of that scene, because upon seeing it, i thought, "well hell, that *is* a pretty awesome invention." all period recreations should have a similar effect.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Serpents and ophiclides are AWESOME!!!

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:36 (twenty-one years ago)

eugene chadbourne has played bach on banjo (he spent like 10 months trancribing parts and I'm itching to hear it, its called 'german country and western' and i want a copy).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:37 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.rugs-n-relics.com/brass-phil/trombones-euphoniums/1850-opheclide.jpg Opheclide

http://www.s-hamilton.k12.ia.us/antiqua/serpent2.jpg Serpent (being played by Mr. Frightening)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I like the idea of period instruments, but goddamn do I hate the sound of a harpsichord.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Ian, OTM.

I'm pretty sure (I'm at work) that all my Purcell and Lully stuff is on period instruments. I think I actually prefer not to hear Bach on a clavichord though. I would wager that the orchestration/conducting are the most important variable to me though.

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Similarly, I suggest anyone in New York to check out the instrument collection at the Met. Fascinating! xpost

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Ian, why are you cross posting to yourself? ;)

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Because it was a thought I should have included in my previous post, I guess.

Sorry.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, harpsichord can be grating sometimes.

― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:50 (twenty-one years ago)

The Academy of Ancient Music and the Age of Englightenment Orchestra are known for only using period instruments, and I remember really being able to hear the difference in a Vaughan Williams piece when they were using gut-stringed instruments instead or synthetic. So I'm in favor. I remember watching that "Eroica" drama on BBC2 and thinking it was really interesting how they used to decorate the inside of their French Horns-more touches like that please.

― jocelyn (Jocelyn), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

There used to be some controversy on the subject in the classical world, pretty predictable back-and-forth stuff: "Bach composed on this!" "Yes but if he'd've had this he would certainly have used it!" "Yes but then he would have written diff. music!" which brings the question into a pretty dense theoretical area: is there "the way a composition is supposed to sound," or just various ways of intersecting composer/conductor/orchestra/audience? for me the yardstick is "is the recording/performance good, or no?" and the theoretical questions are rather silly; whatever coaxes a good performance out of an ensemble is good for that purpose. Herreweghe's rendition of Bruckner's 7th on period instruments is utterly sublime, anyhow.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

when alberto ginastera heard elp's version of his [forget title] he said "that's how i meant it to sound"

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:59 (twenty-one years ago)

hi john!!

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 20:59 (twenty-one years ago)

whatever coaxes a good performance out of an ensemble is good for that purpose

This is very subjective of course, but that's really the only sensible response.

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, harpsichord can be grating sometimes

"like two skeletons copulating on a tin roof", according to Sir Thomas Beecham. A great quote, even though I'm quite fond of the harpsichord.

― OleM (OleM), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:12 (twenty-one years ago)

HOW IS THAT BAD BEECHAM YOU DICK?

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:15 (twenty-one years ago)

john cage also hated harpischords: not that it stopped him from making a tape piece based on that as well as using it on one of his happenings!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:17 (twenty-one years ago)

mark: eh??

― OleM (OleM), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)

My only question is whether such insturments sounded like that back then?

does any recording "sound" like the experience of a chamber concert of the 17th century?

Short and overly simplistic answer: modern pitches are something like half a tone higher than they were 200-150 years ago; unless "historically informed" music enthusiasts make a point of using the older, lower pitches, that would be a difference.

― j.lu (j.lu), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Serpents and ophiclides are AWESOME!!!

I would have thought that you would be even more excited by the sackbut(t), Dan.

― j.lu (j.lu), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, where'd my [bad joke]/[/bad joke] HTML go?

― j.lu (j.lu), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

But j.lu SERPENTS!

― OleM (OleM), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

-- J0hn Darn1elle

Yay!

― Lukas (lukas), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:34 (twenty-one years ago)

well good and bad things can come of the same dedication to historical recreation or whathaveyou, but that doesn't vaporize the theoretical questions, it just means that producing dictums on aesthetic worth is not their end point.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

what are people's opinions of the English Concert's performances? I have quite a few as they do period instruments, a lot of Bach, and were readily available through BMG. I tend to like them, but does anyone have problems with them? Are they, like, the Nickelback of this type of music?

― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)

i like the consequences of for example

19th century ballads + arrangements using 17th century-style counterpoint + pre-renaissance instruments

in shirley and dolly collins records. there's nothing "authentic" about it some strict historical sense but there's something extremely commanding and intriguing about the results. and arguably something authentic in a truer sense.

although such a combination could produce something ghastly in the hands of people with less taste and talent, i'm sure.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 10 March 2005 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

As big an ensemble as possible. And definitely not period instruments. I like my pomp with as much pomp as possible ;)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 10 March 2005 00:56 (twenty-one years ago)

why would period instruments and "pomp" be opposed?

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 10 March 2005 00:57 (twenty-one years ago)

And why would classical (or "classical" (or "or "classical"")) necessarily have anything to do with pomp anyway?

― OleM (OleM), Thursday, 10 March 2005 01:26 (twenty-one years ago)

What about samples of whales and forest noises?

― Pangolino again, Thursday, 10 March 2005 01:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Thread-derailing shout-out for "Frank Zappa on Baroque Instruments" by the Ensemble Ambrosius.

― Curious George Rides a Republican (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 10 March 2005 02:12 (twenty-one years ago)

is there any analagous debate in the dance world over electro played using softsynths vs. on REAL LIVE 808's btw? it seems like that's the way it'd play out if the arena were indie rock

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 10 March 2005 02:38 (twenty-one years ago)

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