Cuban dance music in the US: S/D

That's a pretty big question.

Others here know more about him than I do, but anyway, Machito would be one of the biggest figures. Celia Cruz, obviously, although she was mostly working with non-Cuban musicians during her career in the U.S. (and I'm not convinced that salsa, at least not all salsa, is really a Cuban form of music, even though it has major roots in Cuba).

Currently, there are starting to be a lot more bands in the U.S. playing in the relatively recent Cuban style called timba.

There, that's missing about 98% of what you were asking for, but it's a start. I should have more to say later.

To be really sweeping about it, post-Cuba-embargo, Cuban dance music has tended to cease to exist on a large scale in the U.S., at least in any updated form. It's had to give way to Puerto Rican dominance of Afro-Latin music, thanks to the embargo, the suppression of contemporary Cuban music on commercial airwaves, and the greater number of Puerto Ricans than Cubans in this country (especially in New York city).

(Or to broaden it: Puerto Rican dominance, combined with the sort of mix of Latino identities found in New York.)

You might want to try posting this question at:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.music.afro-latin

This thread deals with some of these political/social issues around the status of Cuban music in the U.S. (in the context of discussing timba):

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.music.afro-latin/browse_thread/thread/1be60de17752be00/817c68357f97c3ef?q=%22cuban-american%22&rnum=68#817c68357f97c3ef

On the other hand, as I said, there are starting to be more U.S. timba bands, including more with Cuban-American members. I can't give you the names of any off the top of my head, since I don't particularly follow this stuff.

(That's a great thread, back in the days when rmal was jumping.)

Willie Chirino has been fairly successful, though I don't get the sense he's very popular at the moment. (I've never especially liked his sound, from what I've heard of it.)

Emilio Estefan is pretty successful as a producer, but I suspect the biggest acts he's produced outside of Latin pop would be Puerto Ricans like Marc Anthony (who admitedly has one foot in Latin pop and one foot in salsa, obviously) and Victor Manuelle (who also went 1/2 Latin pop on Travesia). Gloria Estefan's album of traditional Cuban style music usually gets good reviews for the musicians involved and the production, but she's not very well-regarded as a salsa singer (by most hard-core salsa dancers I've run across, and definitely by musicians).

The interview collection, Faces of Salsa, since it presents various opinions on the relationship between Cuban music and salsa (or "so-called salsa," in some people's opinion), the impact of the embargo, musical developments in Cuba from the 60s until the early 90s, etc. I found it an enjoyable read. Mario Bauza is interviewed.

Frankly, I find it a little weird that I can't think of more Cuban-American artists from the salsa scene, particularly in the most visible role as soneros or band-leaders. I'm sure there are Cuban-American instrumentalists there in the background, but even there, I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Ned Sublette's supposed to do a sequal to his book on Cuban music that will cover post 1950s stuff. Right now Ned's in New Orleans studying the effect of Caribbean music on that city. See his observations and photos at afropop.org . There's nothing specifically there about Cuba, but it looks interesting. I think he also did a presentation at last year's pop music conference in Seattle at the Experience Music Project. There was talk of publishing the results of that.

There's a book about Latin-jazz that came out in relation to a Smithsonian exhibit that happened in DC and later was in NY. I know that touches on Cuba. The presenter of that is doing a talk in April at this year's Experieince Music project conference.

It's fascinating to look at news reports about U.S.-Cuba relations from as late as August 2001. I think there was a real sense that the business community had decided it wanted to open up trade with Cuba, so there would be some sort of thawing out. (And maybe also a sense that a younger generation of Cuban-Americans was less rabidly anti-Castro.) In the post-9/11 hysterics that was all wiped away.

And what is timba? Timba is formed from Cuban musical traditions (especially son/son montuno, but also sometimes Afro-Cuban rumba/religious music, and often with a strong charanga residue) + elements from salsa + funk + jazz + fusion + smooth jazz + quiet storm type R&B + rap.

Thanks a lot for the info and the links, RS! The links are especially useful.

I lost patience and posted your question myself at rec.music.afro-latin, but so far there's no response. (Yes, I have in effect been sitting here waiting for something to pop up on ILM, since I'm bored at work and too sleepy to tackle serious reading matter.)

Some of those U.S.-based timba bands I've noticed lately:

http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/20963.10?Q7zF7nTk;;239
http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/20965.10?Q7zF7nTk;;236

I meant to e-mail DC WPFW dj, dance instructor, Latin music fanatic Jim Byers about this. I was also going to ask him and you folks about young Spanish-speaking instrumentalists (and African ones as well). Watching El Gran Combo the other week and King Sunny Ade and his African Beats this past weekend, and thinking about Los Van Van, all of which groups were greatlive but are no longer spring chickens, in this era of reggaeton/rap I was wondering if there are many salsa or afropop groups with young guys/gals who play guitars and keyboards and horns and percussion? I know there are some rock en espanol ones and funky hybrid ones and probably some school-trained Latin-jazzers, but what about in the 'traditional' genres?

Oh, also, definitely have a look around at: http://www.timba.com/
if you want to have some idea what that's about.

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Some of those timba groups look young.

Yes, they do. You see and have seen more live Latin music than I have, steve, but it's my impression that if you look closely at the prominent bands, there are usually some younger musicians involved. I don't think there's a real shortage of musicians.

There are always talented kids to fill the ranks.

So there are young timba bands in Cuba (where I believe as part of their uh system, kids learn how to play instruments and join bands in school) but are there young salsa bands in Puerto Rico or New York?

This may sound real simplistic but while there are plenty of middle-class kids always joining rock bands everywhere, I just don't see that many young salsa or Congolese afro-rumba, or Nigerian juju bands. It's mostly just rap. I'm not trying to pull an authenticity argument or a nostalgia thing, as I like rap, but it just seems like there are less kids learning traditional instruments (as opposed to programming beats). I've read articles about how music classes are being dropped in American schools, especially poor urban schools, because of lack of funding and a desire to spend all available time on academic subjects, but I don't think Curtis Mayfield or the Motwon house band members learned how to play in school.

It seems like most of the school-taught musicians in the US end up playing jazz, but that doesn't seem to be the case in Cuba.

To give my usual example: there's AMLA (whose web-site is apparently temporarily down), in Philadelphia, which teaches Latin music and dance to all ages, but seems to place special emphasis on younger students.

I guess what I'm thinking is that there may not be a lot of salsa bands consisting mostly of younger musicians, but there are younger musicians are sprinkled throughout lots of bands.

I think the potential loss of an audience is a bigger issue than an undersupply of young musicians.

I guess it's just not something I'm going to worry about. If I had enough extra cash, I might donate some to AMLA, but otherwise, there's not that much to be done (although lobbying for music instruction would be another thing that would be worth doing).

I'm guessing that in Spanish-speaking families, salsa dancing was something that one learned via family-related events and stuff, the way swing dancing was once in English-speaking American families, but as time has gone by less people are learning couples dancing that way. It's now mostly all by classes and thus there's a smaller audience.

so back on thread, I like some of the Cuban folkloric groups from Matanzas (sp?) cited on that afrocubaweb.com site as well as timba-related acts like Bamboleo and NG La Banda.

But those are Cuban-Cubans.

An example of the politics of Cuban-American musical relations (from the allmusic account of Tipica 73):

Salsa Encendida was issued in 1978, which saw the group follow in the same direction as their previous release, but it would be Tipica '73's next release that proved to be a major step forward. Since a few years prior, Rodriquez Jr. had regularly come in contact with some of Cuba's finest musicians during his musical expeditions there, scouting local talent. And on Tipica '73's final release of the '70s, 1979's Tipica '73 en Cuba, Intercambio Cultural, Rodriguez put his findings to use, as he recorded the album entirely in Cuba with his newfound talent from the country (which was no easy feat at the time, due to the U.S. and Cuba's tense political relationship). The move was met with some resistance from certain members of Tipica '73, but Rodriguez pushed forward with his plan nonetheless. Although commendable, the group was subsequently given a hard time by club owners in the U.S., who subsequently refused to book the band, fearing ticket loss due to boycotts.

If Cuba ever changes politically maybe their musicians will benefit by being able to tour the US without such problems, but they might also feel pressured to play overly slick melodramatic salsa romantica. Or maybe they'd have to just create loops for reggaeton rappers.

Or maybe they'd just all become Latin-jazz players. Speaking of, Arturo Sandoval just played outside DC tonight. He seems to come to this area every 6 months.