who has sold more records: ELLIOTT SMITH or THE FALL?

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This will help me settle a dispute. Let's say worldwide charts, not just British or American.

― ath, Monday, 28 March 2005 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't imagine why it would matter. I'm not saying that to be cheeky or dismissive, I'm just wary of the argument that suggests that greater album sales equates higher artistic merit.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 28 March 2005 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, let's face it.....Kelly Clarkson's probably sold more than both combined, and she's a sock puppet.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 28 March 2005 18:44 (twenty-one years ago)

My girlfriend and I were arguing something or other about elitism the other night. I forget the precise context (it was, however, ignited by the pilot of the American version of "The Office"), but she said the Elliott Smith sold more records than The Fall and I wished to contest that statement.

― ath, Monday, 28 March 2005 18:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Settle the dispute by plugging your fingers in your ears and saying LA LA LA. Simple!

― VegemiteGrrl (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 28 March 2005 18:46 (twenty-one years ago)

are you serious? the fall probably have more albums than elliott smith has sold copies of albums.

― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Monday, 28 March 2005 18:46 (twenty-one years ago)

kelly clarkson doesn't get enough respect.

― i am the modren man (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 28 March 2005 18:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, Elliot Smith had...what....five albums? The Fall are currently on their...what....seventy-ninth album?

kelly clarkson doesn't get enough respect.

What she gets is too much oxygen, and I'm leading the charge to put a stop to that.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 28 March 2005 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)

But the Fall only has 50,000 fans (or so the greatest hits claims). :)
Elliott Smith got quite a bit of exposure on the Good Will Hunting soundtrack, played to over a billion people on the oscars, and his suicide certainly gave him a fair amount of press. I'd guess that despite having a smaller catalogue than the Fall, Smith has sold more albums. But I'm totally just guessing.

― Jonathan (Jonathan), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Wouldn't Soundscan settle this, at least as far as the US and Canada goes?

― cdwill, Monday, 28 March 2005 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

well, what I do know for certain is that teh new version of the office can go to hell, it sucks and is yet another reason to hate american tv and/or popular(very) culture in the US as well. Waht was NBC thinking? "Well 'Coupling' worked, right?" I wouldnt be surprised if this shit is a success though. Hopefully Ricky Gervais is rolling around in cash with this.

Oh, I bet Elliot Smith has sold more records but I really have no idea.

― jmeister (jmeister), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd guess the Fall, just cumulatively. let's face it, Elliott Smith wasn't (isn't) all that famous or popular.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Elliott Smith wasn't (isn't) all that famous or popular.

And the Fall are?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Eh, this is actually pretty tough, but I think I'm going to have to go with the Fall, due to depth of catalog, lunatic fanbase (of which I'm a part), and 8 million reissues. I bet it's closer than you'd think though.

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

At least 3, maybe 4 of Elliott Smith's albums have sold in six digits, and I think one of them went gold, so he's probably got combined sales somewhere in the neighborhood of a million. I doubt The Fall can match that.

what's the idea behind this thread? battle of the Smiths?

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:46 (twenty-one years ago)

And the Fall are?

did someone actually say that? no.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I think, among college/high school kids especially, Elliott Smith is very popular, definitely more popular than The Fall...but as everyone pointed out, combined album sales for the Fall will be greater because the Fall has far more albums....I'm sure if you compared album sales of ONE Fall album to ONE Elliott Smith album (especially in the initial year of release), Elliott Smith would win out.

What she gets is too much oxygen, and I'm leading the charge to put a stop to that.

-- Alex in NYC

Petitioning to have her taken off life support? It'd be pretty easy to prove she was in PVS... ;)

― Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

anyone care to hazard a guess as to how much The Fall's best-selling album has sold? could it be as much as 100k? 50k? I honestly wouldn't know.

I think something to remember here is that The Fall have a higher profile in the U.K., and while their reputation there has carried over to U.S. fans, the fact is it takes a lot less sales to be considered big and successful over there. so there might be a bit of a warped perception going on based on that.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:55 (twenty-one years ago)

and for that matter, hazard a guess at how many hardcore fans have bought EVERY Fall album, how many copies even the least selling one has sold, so we can multiply that times however many LPs they have.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean unless someone has access to a Billboard or SoundScan database (and I suppose even that wouldn't be too useful, especially for the Fall who were around well before SoundScan and probably sold a lot of their records in independent stores), we're all reduced to guesswork here so we might as well try to get somewhere near accurate. and most of the guesses I'm seeing in this thread are based on pretty unrealistic assumptions (i.e. the Fall have X times as many albums as Elliott Smith so of course combined they've sold more).

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I wouldn't be surprised if ES's Kill Rock Stars albums sold more than the Fall's biggest album.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)

haha this is such a stupid thread for me to invest this much thought in.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)

FUCK! YOU GUYS MADE ME LOSE COUNT! NOW I HAVE TO START OVER.

1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 28 March 2005 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

are those Fall lyrics?

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 28 March 2005 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

MISS-UH MIZZ-UH REE-UH!!!

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 28 March 2005 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

x-post Al OTM. There's no way the Fall have outsold Elliott Smith. I bet each Fall studio disc sells no more than a couple of thousand. ES's probably sold a few hundred thousand. As for Fall completists who have bought every single thing the band released (loonies, band and fans alike), I imagine that number is somewhere around 1000.

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Monday, 28 March 2005 21:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I just thought maybe it was one of those deals where a big jar of change adds up to ultimately be worth more than a thin little bundle of bills.

Elliott Smith being the bills, of course (and the Fall the pennies).

Objectively speaking, of course (amount-wise [qualitatively, I mean -- I think]).

― ath, Monday, 28 March 2005 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I bet each Fall studio disc sells no more than a couple of thousand.

Worldwide? Are you having a laugh? I'm not expert on sales figures but it's got to be more than that. Unless you're talking about one of those 'Fiend with a Violin' pieces of tat.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd side with The Fall too, on career-length and number of albums. Elliot Smith ain't exactly Mr Worldwide Smash, either.

I've often wondered if Mark E. made much money from the use of "Hip Priest" in Silence of the Lambs. I figured that it must've been pretty lucrative.

― Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:24 (twenty-one years ago)

If every single past member of the fall bought just one copy of a fall album then it's more than ES collective sales.

He is, after all, only one person.

― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:26 (twenty-one years ago)

played to over a billion people on the oscars

This turns out to be major bullshit. There was an article in the Talk of the Town a few weeks ago that showed the audience for the Academy Awards is something like less than half of that... That's all I have to contribute... sorry.

― poortheatre (poortheatre), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:34 (twenty-one years ago)

actually I think it was proven that it's waaaay less than even half of a billion. at most a tenth or something. IIRC from an Oscars thread on ILE.

I still think all the people saying Fall are insane, until/unless someone comes up with info or even a realistic estimate of how many copies their biggest album(s) have sold. because even if they sold, say, 50 thousand each of 20 different albums (which, correct me if I'm wrong, is I think a generous estimate), that would still only be a million, which is pretty close to the estimate I came up with upthread for ES's combined sales.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I bet each Fall studio disc sells no more than a couple of thousand

they sell way more than that worldwide.

I know the drummer in Arcwelder and he told me they used to sell around 5000 copies when they were at their peak, and I imagine most of you have never heard of them.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:51 (twenty-one years ago)

americans say elliott smith, british people say the fall shockah.

i say elliott smith.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think this breaks down on anglo/american lines.

― Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Arcwelder and he told me they used to sell around 5000 copies when they were at their peak

this blows my mind. i saw them once a looong time ago and picked up jacket made in canada. did they tour like nuts or something, cuz they never really got much coverage. or did they. it's all a haze.

― john'n'chicago, Monday, 28 March 2005 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Arcwelder's 'Favor' made John Peel's Festive 50 one year, I remember. I wasn't really into that sort of thing (and still am not, really) but I did like that riff. I'm not surprised 4999 other people did too.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 00:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, that's only one in every million people on the planet...

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

this blows my mind. i saw them once a looong time ago and picked up jacket made in canada. did they tour like nuts or something, cuz they never really got much coverage. or did they. it's all a haze

big in the Midwest...prolly most were sold in Minneapolis...they used to be able to headline the Main Room at First Ave, which holds over 1000 people...they are pretty beloved here in Mpls (and by me as well)...(now I'm starting to doubt myself but I'm pretty sure that's what he said...they were on Touch & Go so they did get euro distribution and everything..)

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sure Arcwelder being on T&G when T&G was at some sort of mid-grunge peak helped them sell those records. Anyway, as for the Fall, what size venues do they play around the world? Here in Chicago (as all the Chicago posters will verify) they play very small clubs (Empty Bottle), much smaller than bands that sell more than a couple of thousand of their records. Empty Bottle holds maybe 300 people, right? Bloc Party, for example, whose album just came out - or is just coming out - is playing its first ever Chicago show at Metro, which is like 1200 people. Just for example.

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 04:06 (twenty-one years ago)

does heatmiser count? that might be the tipping point

― the hague, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 04:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the Good Will Hunting sdtk is a more likely tipping point if one is needed.

I don't think I've ever had a stronger I AM RIGHT YOU ARE ALL WRONG feeling on ILM more than on this thread.

― Al (sitcom), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 04:27 (twenty-one years ago)

To be fair, the Fall played two dates at the Bottle in 2003, right? But I also showed up the night of, after the opening act, and was able to get in without a problem.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 04:36 (twenty-one years ago)

1,454,438....1,454,439...

i swear to god if you guys make me lose count again I'm going to bash your fucking skulls in...

1,454,440...1,454,441...

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 04:37 (twenty-one years ago)

when did the fall release a record?! i've been waiting for this since their PEEL session! HOLY CRAP

― cornelius crash (cornelius crash), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 05:41 (twenty-one years ago)

how about using MATH:
Hypothetically, let's say The Fall "50,000" number is accurate. And let's say they've realeased 20-40 LPs that have sold that much. That's between 1 million and 2 million records. If five thousand per LP is more accurate, then it's in the 100,000s. Did Elliot Smith's records ever go platnum? gold?

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

The answer is The Fall. i know that Mark E Smith used to work in the Our Price in Bury, but to my knowledge, Elliott Smith never worked in a record store.

apologies if someone already made that weak gag up thread, but i figured it was the only interesting thing to say on the subject.

― Lee F# (fsharp), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 10:14 (twenty-one years ago)

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