Any interest in using Wikicities to create an AMG alternative?

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i know many folk complained about AMG when it went to its new design and required registration, etc. After reading a couple of articles on Wikipedia's new WikiCities offshoot (including one in today's wall street journal), I got to thinking about getting collective ILM brains together to build an alternative to AMG. i'd guess it'd have to be more for informational (discography, bios, timelines, etc) rather than opinion purposes, cuz reviews that anyone can change would obviously get messy real fast.

the advantage is that it's free, it doesn't need to be built on any timeframe other than when people contribute. disadvantages include the fact that some people here get paid by AMG for their work. i'm sure there are others.

thoughts?

john'n'chicago, Monday, 28 March 2005 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Yep. I've been wishing ILM was supplimented by something with a more Wiki-like format for sometime. (Partly because I'm a wiki obsessive)

And imagine Cover-connections if you could navigate through a network of interlinked similar covers :-)

phil jones (interstar), Monday, 28 March 2005 22:14 (twenty-one years ago)

why bother reinventing the wheel ? just encourage more ILM people to sign upto http://rateyourmusic.com/

DJ Martian (djmartian), Monday, 28 March 2005 22:17 (twenty-one years ago)

i see your point, but rateyourmusic is just aggregated reviews, which is not what i use AMG for (sorry, Ned). Usually I use it for informational purposes (discography, bio, production credits, finding who covered or originally wrote some song i like, etc)...

john'n'chcago, Monday, 28 March 2005 22:37 (twenty-one years ago)

disadvantages include the fact that some people here get paid by AMG for their work.

*coughs*

which is not what i use AMG for (sorry, Ned)

WAH. (Understood, though.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 28 March 2005 22:38 (twenty-one years ago)

There is also Discogs which is another community built music resource database

http://www.discogs.com/

DJ Martian (djmartian), Monday, 28 March 2005 22:42 (twenty-one years ago)

For Metal music there is:
http://www.metal-archives.com/

DJ Martian (djmartian), Monday, 28 March 2005 22:43 (twenty-one years ago)

for progressive rock there is
Prog Archives
http://www.progarchives.com/

DJ Martian (djmartian), Monday, 28 March 2005 22:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I still use AMG a lot, although it does annoy me how slow it has become. A discography site would be great, however, if it could actually outdo AMG by also including complete singles discographies.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Nu-AMG isn't that bad, and its main selling point - near-authoritiveness on facts - is exackly what a wiki version prob'ly couldn't achieve.

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

But a Wiki would be great. Think about all the non authoritative sources we have on here.

How else are we going to learn about stuff like the ANDREW WK era of WOLF EYES?

BOATPEOPLEHATEFUCK (ex machina), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:21 (twenty-one years ago)

near-authoritiveness on facts - is exackly what a wiki version prob'ly couldn't achieve

i dunno, i think, say, alex could come up with total authoritativeness on, oh, i dunno, maybe a killing joke wiki if given the opportunity.

john'n'chicago, Monday, 28 March 2005 23:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Only by shouting lots at other people ;)

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:33 (twenty-one years ago)

IMDB and Wikipedia are pretty authoritative for starting as and being (respectively) sites based on individual contribution.

mikef-who-mostly-lurks (mfleming), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 00:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Agree with mike. Such a site may become authorative, not at once, but over time. Will of course need contributions from more than ILM regulars, but that may happen if the site gets a good reputation from what is actually there.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 00:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I love this idea. The great thing about it would be that it would be an ILM wiki, not an objective neutral overview (I think that's impossible) but something reflecting the range, and depth, and taste of this community. Which is a truly amazing one. (I speak here as an occasional visitor, rather than a core member.)

I can't imagine there'd be *anything* else on the web that would have that perspective.

phil jones (interstar), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 02:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Accuracy is HUGE for any site attempting to land this role. And AMG is not perfect. But because it is relatively trustworthy, AMG is appreciated by a lot of people, including pros who supposedly are picky, picky, picky. I've had reviews for The Washington Post come back to me with a question from the copy desk because I had a different spelling than AMG's. Fortunately, however, I am always correct. *Ahem*

Mr Deeds (Mr Deeds), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 02:47 (twenty-one years ago)

constant editing by, shall we say, accurists makes wikipedia what it is. i could see an ILM wiki being at least as, if not more, accurate than AMG over time given a critical mass of posters who give a poop.

john'n'chicago, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 02:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Why not just have ILM people contribute to wikipedia? It's already well on its way to being a valuable discography resource; just needs more contributers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:ALBUM

whenuweremine (whenuweremine), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 05:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Why does every album on the prog archives get five stars?

blimey, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 05:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think the stars or reviews are the most important thing anyway. But the reason why every album on the prog archives gets five stars is probably the same as why people the average rating tends to be very high on Rate Your Music. People rate the albums they love, while they largely avoid the albums they dislike. They may throw in the occasional vote for the albums they hate, but that's all.

I would expect Genesis' 80s and 90s output does hardly get a lot of 5s in the prog archives though?

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 07:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Why not just have ILM people contribute to wikipedia?

hrmmm. i really like the idea of this community building its own thing... but that is already in place.

john'n'chicago, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 14:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Isn't this already a community-built thing though? Meaning ILXor.com as it stands.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 14:52 (twenty-one years ago)

true, true. i'd view something along the lines of what's being discussed as just an extension of the community. using ilm as a reference (when was such and such released, did trevor horn ever produce spandau ballet, etc.) isn't particularly easy, but there is a ton of reference material within these threads. this could aggregate that stuff (and more more more) in one nifty place.

john'n'chicago, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 15:30 (twenty-one years ago)

"Isn't this already a community-built thing though? Meaning ILXor.com as it stands."

What stands is fantastic. But it's very hard to get at the old, good stuff. A wiki would capture that better. If I want to know opinions on a band here, I can search for it (slow). Or start a new thread (fast, up-to-date, but losing the good stuff that already exists.) A wiki format wouldn't replace ILM, but might give it a second, more timeless layer of memory.

And the point is ILM is such a good community, such a spin-off secondary layer would be very worthwhile.

phil jones (interstar), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

The search function isn't that slow, though! That's where I'm a touch baffled here, I suppose.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I can search for it (slow).

In place of using the ILX engine, the tab for Google or the other stand-in above it often works good enough in a pinch.

Or start a new thread (fast, up-to-date, but losing the good stuff that already exists.) A wiki format wouldn't replace ILM, but might give it a second, more timeless layer of memory.

Hmmm, another collection of aggregated computerized residue.

And the point is ILM is such a good community, such a spin-off secondary layer would be very worthwhile.

There is also a charm to the chaotic nature of the material dredged by the ILM search function, a charm that is entirely missing from the wikipedia's of the world.

I still use a lot of books on writing and music. I don't see abandoning them for the Internet wisdom wiki-style on a subject. One thing I have noticed about collections of wisdom and history on the Internet. They tend to collectively forget in idiosyncratic ways anything that was important pre-Internet or pre- the generation that is involved in creating the new collection of "content." So the history develops holes, holes not apparent to the passerby or dilettante but fairly obvious to people who know the subject under consideration.

However, this doesn't impede the march of progress. And people always want to add their part to the canard/meme of putting all information at your fingertips on the wires, somewhere, so do what thou wilt.

George Smith, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 18:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the chances of beating AMG in the "just the facts, ma'm" sweepstakes aren't that great - since there is a truly staggering amount of data that would need to be aggregated to even begin to compete. However, I think it might be fun and enlightening to have an ILM-only review/ratings database. The idea would be that any poster on ILM could assign star ratings and write a short blurb about any albums/singles of their choice. Then you could search by artist/title and see what other ILMers think about something.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 18:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Reviews'd be fine, but I think what would be really interesting would be more meta/archeological articles on genres, decades, secret histories, geography, the use of certain instruments, critical theory, defending/rescinding the canon, etc etc whatever. Kind of like "ILM's Histories of Pop", something that allowed writers to pull together all the connections that shape their personal aesthetic, something that would seem more representative of ILM to me because it would be about the different ways people hear and understand the world of music rather than differing opinions on individual moments, tho that obviously has its place too. The joy of that sort of approach would also be that it'd provide directional pointers, i.e. by coming across stuff you were familiar with you'd be led on to new territories, or altered perspectives.

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 18:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I'm not so hung up on the "definitive" all-the-facts kind of thing. I don't believe in them.

I suppose what I really believe in is "densely linked" hypertexts, which is what wiki becomes. Whereas ILM is a fairly sparsely linked hyper-text to my mind.

I'm unlikely to fill a post with 5 links to other posts, precisely because I can't find those links easily enough relative to the work of posting.

For example, I posted my Broadcast thread yesterday without checking to see if there were other Broadcast threads and linking to them. In wiki, I'd have written BroadCast in the first sentence and links would have been made. When someone posts a "Broadcast S/D" thread next year, she probably won't link back to my thread.

OTOH, in a wiki with a BroadCast page, you could have /SearchDestroy, /POO, subpages. Cover-connections pages could link every cover-image to the appropriate band. All those lists like "100 top accordion tracks" would be put in context. We could evolve our own CatagoryCategory folksonomic classification of bands and genres. People's names could quickly be followed back to their "introduce yourself" profile, etc.

But clearly you don't want to steal from the discussion forum. Maybe it's better to have a few people copying relevant chunks from ILM to a wiki, and an easy way to link to it from this forum (eg. if Wiki:BroadCast automatically became a link to it)

phil jones (interstar), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 19:25 (twenty-one years ago)

but I think what would be really interesting would be more meta/archeological articles on genres, decades, secret histories, geography, the use of certain instruments, critical theory, defending/rescinding the canon, etc etc whatever. Kind of like "ILM's Histories of Pop"

Oh, you mean like what's in the Village Voice, altie weeklies, Rolling Stone, Mojo and Classic Rock only you don't get paid and there's no copy editing to save your ass.


George Smith, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Recent fact I discovered on wikipedia was that The White Stripes are/were infact an important New Wave band.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Egg-zackly!

George Smith, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

And the historical record on AC/DC can be permanently corrected, perhaps under an overview of the canon, with this title: "Bon Scott, unironically, he was really gay!"

George Smith, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 19:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh well, if somebody else has been paid to have an opinion about stuff I'll just shut up.

Stupid Internet, they'll just let anybody in.

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Stupid Internet, they'll just let anybody in.

Isn't it great!

Here's my idea. Someone assigned the organization of the wiki-style entry of AC/DC should work hard to make sure everyone understands Bon Scott was gay. If there's a review of "Let There Be Rock," one of the finest heavy boogie albums of all time, a pop-up window or sidebar should develop, explaining how Bon Scott was determined to be a gay man.

The song "Bad Boy Boogie" could be highlighted with a link, bringing up the lyrics and the interpretation, that they are obviously the lyrical conceits of a gay man.

The nice thing about the Internet is that it allows you to correct the misunderstandings of the real world without having to go through an editor or anyone who would get in the way.

George Smith, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Aww bless, did that thread upset you?

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Just the opposite. It's part and parcel of the charm thing I mentioned when searching through ILM.

George Smith, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)

But clearly you don't want to steal from the discussion forum. Maybe it's better to have a few people copying relevant chunks from ILM to a wiki, and an easy way to link to it from this forum (eg. if Wiki:BroadCast automatically became a link to it)

Actually, a wiki companion to ILM could be a nice thing. You don't even have to copy anything over from ILM. You could just create an index to ILM posts based on band-name. So you could go to the wiki page for "Broadcast" (to continue the example above) and see a list of links to all the posts and/or threads about the band. This is something that would grow organically over time - as people searching through the archives find relevant material about a particular band, they could add that information to the wiki page.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

x post

Ok George, I re-read yr earlier post and I see what you're getting at.

But c'mon, we're all Post-Modernists now. Isn't yearning for truth or fact or authoritiveness terribly reactionary?

;)

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

The advantages of the wiki over the Search function would be that it would be faster and wouldn't increase the load on the current server, it would be "smarter" - ie., it would eliminate false matches to threads where people used the word "broadcast" in some other context (not referring to the band), and it would allow people to also add some sort of permanent reference content about the band if they were so inspired.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 29 March 2005 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Isn't yearning for truth or fact or authoritiveness terribly reactionary?

Yes!! Luddite, too.

George Smith, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)


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