Cling To The Old Dreams

Although I can't provide hard evidence, I doubt very much that the psychological mechanisms underlying nostalgia for the music of one's youth are anything new, and they certainly didn't begin in the 1950's. The example you suggest of nostalgia for 1956 (experienced in 1959) seems a little odd though. I would have thought an 8 to 10 year interval would be more credible, especially when it coincides with a cultural sea change (eg a 28 year old Elvis fan in 1964 bemoaning the eclipse of Rock 'n' Roll by the Beatles etc).

It's a provocative question, and I think the examples do seem fitting. Remember, Pinefox asks about the history of pop culture, of popular culture, and although mass-consumed culture existed in other forms for years, youth culture and the idea of a "teenager" -- especially as a target audience -- did not exist in the U.S., probably not anywhere, until the post-GI Bill suburban affluence of the 1950s blah blah blah. And, obviously, rock and roll, Elvis, etc. were major catalysts.

The sheer immediacy of rock music in the 1950s -- no canonization, no institutionalization, it being purchased and digested almost exclusively in 45 rpm format, and the assumption by those that sold it that it was totally disposable -- makes the example apropos. (The use of Elvis and B&S-era Tigermilk are interesting, as well. Elvis' appeal was so collective -- he was something that everyone agreed upon -- and B&S's appeal at that point was, in part, due to exclusivity.)

Certainly there would be warm memories of Elvis circa 1956 in '59, but rock was so new; there was (luckily for them) no linear timeline, no canonization to accept or deny, and, I'd doubt, virtually no serious discourse about rock music (unless "It's got a good beat, and you can dance to it. I give it a 75, Dick." counts). Which isn't to say that there needs to be shared experience to elicit feelings of nostalgia, but there does have to be a certain disappointment with the present (again, Belle and Sebastian was an excellent example) that is often compounded when it is shared with others. That type of context may not have developed by 1959.

When pop nostalgia began is another matter. The first obvious example that springs to mind is the "rockers" half of any mods vs. rockers hulabaloo, but again that's collective nostalgia.

Doesn't it seem like pop nostalgia probably began some time after the invention of the phonograph? It seems to me that that's the only way you could really count on hearing a tune enough to have strong associations with it. Sheet music sold like crazy at the turn of the century, but I don't know if that was a part of pop culture in the same way records became. But by the late 20s, I'm sure there were those nostalgic about the records of the fist half of the 20.

To be pedantic, I think there might have been some nostalgia for early Elvis during the "clean-cut teen idols" era. But not on a big scale; nostalgia in pop/rock *post-1955* essentially begins, as Scott says, with the "rockers" pitting themselves against the mods. It only really got big, though, circa 1972; think of "American Pie", 10cc's "Donna", Wizzard's "See My Baby Jive", the sudden takeover of the UK charts by reissues from the late 50s / early 60s, etc.

Thanks for the thoughtful answers to what may have looked a rambling question. No, I don't think you need 8 to 10 years to get nostalgic. 'Cultural', I mean, 'collective' nostalgia may work that way, but I was thinking in terms of individuals' responses (which I appreciate are 'cultural' through and through). There is no question that one can be nostalgic for last year. Still, I am really struck by the way your comments point out the 'objective' determinants - not least technological developments - for 'subjective' phenomena; which is partly what I may have trying to think my way towards.

I also found myself thinking about records that articulate pop nostalgia - which would only be circumstantial evidence here, for the absence of such records would not at all prove that it wasn't happening Out There Among The Kids. I thought of two cases.

1. Would the Beach Boys be an early instance of pop nostalgia - in the sense of 'I remember last summer / the surf was high and the music was cool', etc? Needless to say I am making those lyrics up, cos I don't know their work as well as you folks do. I'm just wondering when the BBs first articulated such a sentiment.

2. The (to me) very moving early Dylan song 'Bob Dylan's Dream', as early as 1963, recounts a memory ('While riding on a train going West...') of memory - of a time when Bob (or the narrator, anyway) was young and hung out with good pals. Nostalgia for sure, though maybe not specifically pop-based.

Listeners unfamiliar with this song should probably ask Uncle Tom Ewing about it.

Much of "Pet Sounds" has always sounded *intensely* nostalgic to me.

For any particular reason, Robin? I don't know the record.

Ah now, Pinefox ...

FWIW I think Pet Sounds is a very good album which has nevertheless been overrated by many. My comment on nostalgia and yearning for days gone by was inspired by the sad, rueful melancholia throughout that album, which I think is absolutely fucking obvious if you *do* know it - it contains a song called "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" for God's sake, many of the lyrics are looking back sentimentally to 1950s Californian adolescence, a world already vanishing in 1966, and the band's confused and baffled response to profound changes in youth culture was just round the corner. "Caroline No" especially is a lament for innocence lost which, for the most determinedly forward-thinking, is easy to be affected by but much harder to love.

Most of what I've said is boringly canonical, actually - Ian MacDonald and David Stubbs both said it in Uncut within a few months in 1999. But I admire you, Pinefox, for your resistence to such accepted ideas. We could do with more like you.

I finally have a new thing to say on this thread. I have heard Kathryn Williams' magical cover of Big Star's 'Thirteen' (don't know the original), and it seems to be a major instance of pop becoming nostalgic for pop.

I take it that 13 is the age of the narrator / addressee. And I have come to think that they are 13 in, say, 1966 (? hence 'Paint It, Black'). So the song seems to be miming, affectionately performing, a pop / youth attitude / experience (innocence) of a few years gone by.

It has got me thinking about that mode: the affectionate rendering of pop innocence. I have come to realize that this is a mode to which a lot of my own work has belonged. And I am wondering (again) whether the mode started around the time of the Big Star song (whenever that was exactly: 1970? I am not sure I have ever heard Big Star).

Isn't everything a rendering of pop innocence? But just faster and faster. Britney Spears a virgin - she's a tart - she had sex - she got married. The speed of communication is the problem and the answer.
This has everything to do with the invention of the phonograph, etc. - communication has changed everything. Soviet Communism fell. And now terorism reigns. Communication has changed a democracy into a meritocracy - you can't become president without a billion dollars. The average American is exposed to more advertisement than content.
But media is free - and the first amendment guarentees that this right be upheld.
What is my point? Oh, yeah, nostalgia is a commodity, one that I prefer buying from indepedent distrubutors.
Please don't package my life to me - eg "I Love The Eighties". Some important things happened - I don't want to be reduced to hair bands vs. new wave.
And I am sick and tired of my favorite, beloved things being coopted.
I am in a very hateful mood today.