The greatest six minutes in rock'n'roll

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In today's Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/fridayreview/story/0,12102,1482218,00.html

So, is Greil Marcus correct?

― andyjack (andyjack), Friday, 13 May 2005 10:21 (twenty-one years ago)

yes.

― N_RQ, Friday, 13 May 2005 10:23 (twenty-one years ago)

possibly.

― N_RQ, Friday, 13 May 2005 10:23 (twenty-one years ago)

"When the single was released, on July 20 1965, copies serviced to radio stations cut the song in half and spread it over both sides of a red vinyl 45, giving them the option of airing only the first three minutes."

or, the last three minutes, which must have been odd. has el marcus written a *whole book* about this song? so it seems.

― N_RQ, Friday, 13 May 2005 10:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I suppose I should have put my view, which goes something like "the best thing Bob Dylan ever did was pick up an electric guitar, and since this sort of started that new era, it may be the best six minutes etc, but is it actually his best song of that or any other length?" So as you can see, I'm very definately, ummmm, undecided but probably yes.

xpost...apparently he has written a book about it, and he's talking about it at the Hay Festival in a few weeks time (not that I'm going...)

― andyjack (andyjack), Friday, 13 May 2005 10:27 (twenty-one years ago)

This and "Common People" belong together.

That's 6 minutes as well, but the radio liked their edit version.

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 13 May 2005 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)

... he's coming to that pub in Highgate where Simon Reynolds, Paul Morley and half of ILM fought the famous "Battle of Highgate" in the Postpunk Wars

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 13 May 2005 10:30 (twenty-one years ago)

god, he has. and you know what, it could be awesome because it *was* a big turning point, in pop culture generally, 1965. you can kind of see in the 'dont look back' film that bob is at the end of his tether with folkies and with baez, and he recorded the song when he got back from england: it is a big fuck off. and it's six minutes. i'm not very good at thinking of other six minute songs.

xpost

OMG i didn't know that! as i said, i live next door. yes! folk-rock warz ahoy!

― N_RQ, Friday, 13 May 2005 10:31 (twenty-one years ago)

"Like A Rolling Stone" as performed on the "Albert Hall" live album might be the greatest EIGHT minutes of the rock and the roll.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 13 May 2005 10:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Isn't it awesome he gives it up for the Jamies?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 13 May 2005 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

oh jesus, not this fucking song.

― The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Friday, 13 May 2005 11:01 (twenty-one years ago)

No, it's "Like A Rolling Stone." Wasn't "Oh Jesus" on Slow Train Coming?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 13 May 2005 11:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha! Of course when I saw the Greil Marcus byline I knew INSTANTLY who this was gonna be about, but still, he's got a somewhat arguable but definitely reasonable case.

― Stupornaut (natepatrin), Friday, 13 May 2005 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

The greatest six minutes in rock & roll = me getting to use a bathroom / stall far from a rock club where I am provided with A) toilet paper, B) a door that stays shut, and C) a toilet seat.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 13 May 2005 13:03 (twenty-one years ago)

But in the UK the sort of protests that had followed Dylan and the Hawks around the US were organised. The Communist party had long operated a network of Stalinist folk clubs where the songs to be sung, who could sing what, and in what manner, was strictly controlled. The idea was to preserve the image of the folk, whereas pop music symbolised the destruction of that community by capitalist mass society.

Is this true? I'd love it to be, because it's like all my prejudices about Marxism and folk music rolled into one, but for the same reason I can't quite believe it is.

― alext (alext), Friday, 13 May 2005 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

it has some truth, i think in the 50s, but perhaps not in 1965, when the CP was even more marginal than ever, even within the marxist movement as a whole. also the brit CP was far more into jazz than folk, and played a major part in its 'import' into the uk in the 30s.

― N_RQ, Friday, 13 May 2005 13:14 (twenty-one years ago)

otoh,

The Communist party had long operated a network of Stalinist folk clubs where the songs to be sung, who could sing what, and in what manner, was strictly controlled.

so unlike the capitalist entertainment industry!

The idea was to preserve the image of the folk, whereas pop music symbolised the destruction of that community by capitalist mass society.

t/s: being defined by your membership of a folk community vs being defined by your consumer power.

― N_RQ, Friday, 13 May 2005 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

NRQ that last question is the heart of the Dissensus pop debate!

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 13 May 2005 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Why does the greatest six minutes in rock and roll have to be exactly one song?

Can I have two Beatles songs? Or part of "Layla"?

― The Mad Puffin, Friday, 13 May 2005 13:32 (twenty-one years ago)

i lack the frickin' qualifications for that debate, but you can like teh marxism and teh pop *and* bob, yo.

xpost

― N_RQ, Friday, 13 May 2005 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

CP Lee wrote a very good book about the 66 tour that has lots of good stuff on the communist party/folk crossover.

― Pete W (peterw), Friday, 13 May 2005 13:41 (twenty-one years ago)

LARS is as good a candidate as any. Although, I wish somebody would write a book about the Funky 4 + 1's "That's the Joint."

― Not Thaat Chuck, Friday, 13 May 2005 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

like a rolling stone doesnt even rock though.

― blahbarian, Friday, 13 May 2005 14:41 (twenty-one years ago)

it does so!

― N_RQ, Friday, 13 May 2005 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

It may not be AC/DC rocking, but it does have electric guitar and a backbeat.

― On the bass, 57 7th, he wrote this (calstars), Friday, 13 May 2005 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

if anything, hendrix's version of it at monterey is harder rocking. but even then, its like saying ll cool j's i need love is the greatest hip hop song ever or something.

― blahbarian, Friday, 13 May 2005 14:52 (twenty-one years ago)

i feel a sickening need to read that book (but have only seen hardcover so far)...

i recently heard the studio "Like a ..." after being addicted to the "albert hall" thing for a few months and was amazed by all the slight nuances ihad never really noticed in the studio take (probably 'cause i just grew up with it and never listened too carefully)...and damn, theres just so much going on.

the best? why not...

and now ill incubate an idea for a new thread

― b b, Friday, 13 May 2005 14:57 (twenty-one years ago)

stairway to fucking heaven

― mr. jones, Friday, 13 May 2005 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

" its like saying ll cool j's i need love is the greatest hip hop song "

um, which is something that could be argued. it's not *inherently* wrong.

― N_RQ, Friday, 13 May 2005 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

its just boring though isnt it, writers harking on about how dylan was so revolutionary etc etc etc. heard it all before, at this stage. to reduce it to such absolutes, to ONE mere song, seems even more silly. dylan probably dislikes rock writers even more now (not that he needed anything to encourage him of course).

― blahbarian, Friday, 13 May 2005 15:02 (twenty-one years ago)

i think dylan quite likes marcus. he quotes him approvingly a few times in 'Chronicles' anyway.

― Pete W (peterw), Friday, 13 May 2005 15:04 (twenty-one years ago)

When's Marcus gonna write a book about Knocked Out Loaded? Or "Band Of The Hand"? Wake me up for that.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Friday, 13 May 2005 15:51 (twenty-one years ago)

"its just boring though isnt it, writers harking on about how dylan was so revolutionary etc etc etc. heard it all before, at this stage. to reduce it to such absolutes, to ONE mere song."

but that's Greil Marcus' MO, always been. About 40% of the time he's brilliant.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 13 May 2005 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

the book is really fun, quite good. I love this song too but OMG YES ABOUT "That's the Joint"

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 13 May 2005 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Greil Marcus is so much better when he's passionate - when he writes from the perspective of a MUSIC fan rather than a sociologist/historian.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Friday, 13 May 2005 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Good book.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 13 May 2005 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

the book is really fun, quite good. I love this song too but OMG YES ABOUT "That's the Joint"

-- Matos-Webster Dictionary

YOU should write it. How about getting the 331/3 people to start a 45 series? That would be great.

― Not Thaat Chuck, Friday, 13 May 2005 16:23 (twenty-one years ago)

His most brilliant leap is when he somehow unearths a connection b/w "Like A Rolling Stone" and the PSB's cover of "Go West."

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 13 May 2005 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

"Like A Rolling Stone" is a pretty damn good song, but I'd just as soon listen to "Sweet Child O Mine".

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Friday, 13 May 2005 16:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Greatest six minutes in rock: "Judy is a Punk" plus 4-1/2 minutes of Joey Ramone clearing his throat.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 13 May 2005 16:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Greil Marcus is so much better when he's passionate - when he writes from the perspective of a MUSIC fan rather than a sociologist/historian.

But don't you feel that's what he's doing in this book? There's definitely a strong sociologist slant, but mostly it's just the lens through which he expresses his fandom. As when people point out tons of songs that open with a snare hit and he says, "I don't care -- there's still nothing like it." Basic theme: Marcus thinks this song is awesome and he wants you to think so, too. What makes it effective, though, is everything he pulls in -- from his general social commentary to his details on Al Kooper ending up on organ.

I think it's *really* fun read.

― JC-L (JC-L), Friday, 13 May 2005 19:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe it's because of the huge generation gap, but I really don't 'get' this song, or much of Dylan's oeuvre.

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Friday, 13 May 2005 19:03 (twenty-one years ago)

So no. Definitely not the "best six minutes in rock and roll." I hate that everytime something like this is published, it's always some uber canonized song or record from the sixties, it sort of trvializes everything that everyone has done since then.

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Friday, 13 May 2005 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

as much as I love "TTJ" I don't think I'm the right person for that task.

the opening-snare-crack thing is a great part of the book, but of course I disagree--there is something like it, all right: the very beginning of "Renegade Snares (Foul Play VIP Mix)"

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 13 May 2005 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I really think the issue isn't so much is LARS the greatest 6 in rock or even what is the significance of LARS as it is something more like "What is LARS?" I think that's what makes GM's readings of so many different performance, as well as the somewhat dry epilogue, important.

I just skimmed the article, but I'm not sure how good a feel it gives for what the book's all about.

― JC-L (JC-L), Friday, 13 May 2005 19:22 (twenty-one years ago)

would it be peevish to suggest that (a) there isn't a "greatest song song" or a "greatest six minutes of rock" and (b) i know, i know, it's just one man's opinon and yet (c) it's not terribly exciting to discuss it in those terms even if it is one man's opinion?

i think marcus is better as a cultural historian than as a "visionary" critic, and so i like this piece better than most of his pieces.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 13 May 2005 19:25 (twenty-one years ago)

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Friday, 13 May 2005 23:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Is visionary critic an oxymoron?

― Bobby Peru (Bobby Peru), Saturday, 14 May 2005 01:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Depends on what writing aids were used.

― JC-L (JC-L), Saturday, 14 May 2005 02:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Kitchens of Distinction's "Hammer" is one of many off-hand examples of a six-minute song that's vastly more enthralling than "Like a Rolling Stone". Actually, that should almost be a thread...name a six-minute song greater than "Like a Rolling Stone".

― That's not cocaine! It's Ian Riese-Moraine! (Eastern Mantra), Saturday, 14 May 2005 13:52 (twenty-one years ago)

A 60something writer declares a six-minute song from the 60s to be the peerless epitome of whatever. (666!) Forty plus years later. Hmm. Isn't this a tad, ah, ROCKIST?

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Saturday, 14 May 2005 14:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Definitely not the "best six minutes in rock and roll." I hate that everytime something like this is published,

Yeah, me too. I hate that so many new books in the nonfiction section on everything under the sun are sold on their claim to be the definitive account of the most important thing ever in the recorded history of the subject in question. I walk in bookstores these days and get really depressed about it. Because you know it isn't so. I don't even want to read them because they're already kind of delusional.

― daria g (daria g), Saturday, 14 May 2005 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

i.e. I COULD HAVE DONE WHAT HE DID!

But you didn't, did you?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 16 May 2005 05:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Do we really need yet to hear this story again? Of course "Like a Rolling Stone" is a beautiful thing, musically, lyrically, vocally ("jyooosed en iiiitt"). But on a given day, "Sweet Child O' Mine" or "Eat Y'Self Fitter" or "Sex Machine" could easily convince me of their equal or greater greatness (I don't actually know if any of those are 6 minutes long, but for argument's sake pretend they are). I understand the cult of LARS and its significance, and I love Dylan to pieces (I started the "greatest living songwriter" thread about him) but even on that album alone most days I'll take the title track or "Tombstone Blues" or "Desolation Row" first.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 16 May 2005 06:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Ok, here's a potential line of thinking on some of Marcus' books and I'm curious what people think about this: I think that his writing is sometimes geared toward the creation of myths and I don't know what the purpose of these myths are. I feel, for example, that the Sex Pistols may have been mythologized far beyond the scope of their actual significance in Lipstick Traces. I haven't read Invisible Republic in a while, so I'm not sure whether or not I think he was also doing this for Dylan's Basement Tapes in that book. Have not read the new book.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 16 May 2005 06:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you not think it worth waiting until you've actually read books to develop a line of thinking on them, or their author?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 16 May 2005 06:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, see, if you read my post, you will see that I am referring to a line of thinking related to at least one and perhaps two books by this same author, both of which I have read. I make no claims about the new book.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 16 May 2005 06:47 (twenty-one years ago)

The purpose of any "myth" is to make one's own sense out of the random biological disorder of life and society.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 16 May 2005 06:58 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, but if someone publishes a book about it, they're sharing this myth that they have created with the world. People will then make what they will out of the myth. As I state in my post, the mythologizing of the Sex Pistols in Lipstick Traces felt disproportionate to me. Perhaps it did to others, as well.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 16 May 2005 07:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Then again, yet others may have found Marcus' mythologising of the Sex Pistols in precise proportion. It's crazy but that's how it works!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 16 May 2005 07:05 (twenty-one years ago)

That is true. I am merely stating my own perspective.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 16 May 2005 07:06 (twenty-one years ago)

It takes every kinda people to make the world go round.

― Mitch "Double Fun" Holt (nostudium), Monday, 16 May 2005 07:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Greil Marcus is so much better when he's passionate - when he writes from the perspective of a MUSIC fan rather than a sociologist/historian.

But don't you feel that's what he's doing in this book? I think it's *really* fun read.

-- JC-L

I didn't even know the bk existed until just now! Sounds like a good read. According to my CD player, "LARS" is in fact the greatest 6:13 in rock! That Bloomfield/Kooper lineup has always been my favourite Dylan backing band ever. And it definitely rocks, altho that would be more obvious if Bobby Gregg's drums were more prominent throughout - that opening snare shot is just a tease.

Greatest 6:00 is more likely "Iron Man". Or Steely Dan's "Do It Again", or Bob Seger's "Persecution Smith" played twice in a row, or the middle of "Sister Ray", or "1970" plus 45 seconds to catch your breath, or...shit, who knows?

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Monday, 16 May 2005 07:42 (twenty-one years ago)

6:00 is about a third of the way through "Sister Ray," just before Cale and Reed turn up their respective amps and spend the remaining two-thirds of the track trying to drown each other out (that's the story according to Cale; he started to play an organ solo, then Reed started a guitar solo about two seconds later and they looked daggers at each other throughout).

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 16 May 2005 07:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Definitely not the "best six minutes in rock and roll." I hate that everytime something like this is published, it's always some uber canonized song or record from the sixties, it sort of trvializes everything that everyone has done since then.

no it doesn't! if you think 'that's the joint' is better/more 'significant' (fuck scare quotes: more SIGNIFICANT) then pitch it to faber. okay they're all rockists; pitch it to da capo. whatever.

― N_RQ, Monday, 16 May 2005 08:39 (twenty-one years ago)

The greatest six minutes in rock'n'roll would have to be two minutes long, really. Under three, anyway.

I thought the article was OK, but I wish people would shut up about the opening snare drum sound kicking open the doors of their mind. I mean, I bet Simon Bates or Wolfman Jack or whoever was talking over it anyway.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Monday, 16 May 2005 10:08 (twenty-one years ago)

1965? It would have been Jimmy Young talking over it, ar-har Bob Dylanyousee.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 16 May 2005 10:45 (twenty-one years ago)

What a shocking thing," said Elvis Costello, who as Declan McManus turned 11 that summer, "to live in a world where there was Manfred Mann and the Supremes and Engelbert Humperdinck and here comes Like a Rolling Stone."

hahahaha. reason number 365 to hate elvizzz costello

go away you silly tw@

― piscesboy, Monday, 16 May 2005 15:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I just skimmed the article, but I'm not sure how good a feel it gives for what the book's all about.

-- JC-L (jmc7g...), May 13th, 2005.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/850000/images/_852283_lars_ulrich150.jpg

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 16 May 2005 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

(piscesboy xpost)

Especially since Engelbert Humperdinck didn't start having hits until 1967.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 06:03 (twenty-one years ago)

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