Drum Machines: S/D

Here's a pretty good early drum machine summary, linked to Kraftwerk:

http://www.intuitivemusic.com/tguidedrummachine2.html

more later.

prince is pretty much all linndrum (well, classic 80's prince anyway)

kraftwerk made their own drum machines.

herbie hancock used a dmx for 'rockit'.

gary numan used a drummer.

wtf

I think it was an Acetone Rhythm Ace

His early 80s stuff is pretty much all LinnDrum and DMX, with the occasional Roland TR-808 or TR-909. (I don't think he started using real drums again until the Sign O' The Times record.) The famous "wood block" sound as heard on When Doves Cry & Let's Go Crazy is actually a detuned Linn snare rim.

NWA
Digable Planets

Usually, hip-hop beats are assembled in a sampler - the AKAI MPC series is a favorite, because it allows you to program beat patterns as you would on a drum machine.

A lot of rap stuff from this particular era consists of a sampled breakbeat mixed with drum hits from either a TR-808 or -909 for added beef, punch, and sizzle - the 808 is a favourite for it's super-low, super-long kick drum (the "boooooooom" that you've doubtless heard emanating from passing cars as they bump Jay-Z or Snoop).

Some producers insist on using the actual Roland drum machines sync'ed to a sampler, but samples of them will suffice for most people.

CR78 (70's)
Linndrum (early Prince & such)
808 (mostly early 80's)
DMX (early to mid 80's)
SP12 (85-87)[drum sampler]
SP1200 (88-early 90's)[drum sampler tweaked for loops]

Most machines you hear used by people who didn't specialize in drum machines were using the CR78 prior to 1980. Cornelius worked with that circa Fantasma/Point, for referrence.

I know of no drum machine used by Prince other than the Linndrum. I read an interview with Roger Linn where he stated Prince was one of the very first to purchase it. I think Prince discovered gates and reverbs come 1985, making his Linndrum sound closer to a DMX.

Most suggest Phil Collins "In the Air" was an 808, but I suspect it was the cr78. In the Air came out in 1981. The 808 was released in 1980...so it's possible. But it doesn't sound as full as an 808 to me. The 808 snare would positive ID it...

The quintesential DMX track is Art of Noise's "Beatbox". King Kut by Word of Mouth is another great example. HUGE sound, which is why it dated so poorly.

NWA from Eazy Duz It forward was all samples, but most of Dre's earlier stuff was SP12 (not 1200) if I'm correct, loaded with Oberheim DMX and Roland 808 sounds. Listen to Dopeman and Boyz in the Hood...you'll hear it toggle between the two, and intertwine the sounds. Studio nerds will explain in deatil how they could've sync'd up the two, but were talking mid-80's west coast ghetto here. SP12 was the weapon of choice, as seen on the back of an early Dan the Automator 12".

SP12 was released in 85. SP1200 was 1988. The 1200 had much more sample time, which is why you hear a drastic change in Hip-Hop around 1988. Hip-Hop artists also learned that if they sample a record on 45rpm+8, they could slow the pitch down after the fact...thus, expanding the sample time. Enter loops into Hip-Hop.

Digable Planets were sample based exclusivly, to my knowledge. If I had to guess a sampler used, I'd say Akai (mpc60 maybe). It doesn't fire like the Emu SP1200 (which was the most used piece during their time). The SP1200 is like a fucking machine gun.

I failed to include the SH101. Maybe I'm mistaking much of the cr78 stuff with this.

This interview says it was a CR78. I always thought the "Phil Collins drum sound" was real drums with a ton of gated reverb. That's interesting that it was a drum machine.
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_phil_collins_air/

I failed to include the SH101. Maybe I'm mistaking much of the cr78 stuff with this.

The SH101 is a synth though.

I guess that means it's a justified exclusion ;-)

There is an 808 kick sampled (and maybe even a snare overlay), but the song and album was largely based on samples form the Ultimate Beats & Breaks series, as was standard tactics at the time for Hip-Hop.

Dre openly admits it was PE's It Takes a Nation of Millions that altered his direction with NWA's production. Ironically, nation of Millions was NOT based on Beats & Breaks series (one of the few pre-1990 albums that wasn't).

It should be pointed out that Rick Rubin tried his hand at all the major machines in the early to mid 80's, but always found most success with the 808...which is what not only kept the machine popular long after its time, but inspired Bass music as a whole.

This is why the 808 kick was always included on loop based tracks...and why it is included as a stock (albeit, on disc) sound with most samplers long afterwards. I bought my MPC2000 in 1998, and it was in the initial batch of discs.

Like Super Mario Bros and Nintendo...

http://www.drummachine.com/v2/whoisdrummachinemuseum.html

Re: the SH-101, I don't understand the mention. Was it particularly common to use the SH101 for drum sounds in the studio? I don't see why it would be any more common than using a Minimoog, 2600, Moog Modular, etc. And in that case we may as well mention other studio tricks like layering the snare with gated white noise or the bass with a gated low frequency sine wave to fatten them up. It's also worth mentioning that a lot of disco tracks used tape loops so while they may sound like real drums they were more like an early form of sampling.

I used to see his albums, but never picked them up. Then a friend of mine bumped into one of her friends at dinner, so he joined us...which he then said he just signed Machine Drum to his Horseglue Records.

Still didn't convince me to buy any Machine Drum albums.

I'm not sure if it was directed at me or not, but I'll answer it.

I mentioned the SH101 only because when I used to produce in the late 80's, the guy that did pre-production for me in his garage studio always talked about making beats with it. I was never curious enough to probe further; I knew what sounds I wanted (in my teenaged brain, that is).

In Hip-Hop circles after the early 80's, synths weren't of interest (sad truth)...so I assumed he was talking about some old drum machine.

Later, when I heard a J-pop song called SH101 (The Cymbals, if memory serves me), it had a little drum machine that sounded like those old organ accompaniment rhythm boxes...so it all just clicked.

I didn't expand on the sh101 in my post as I knew nothing further about it. I just knew some Hip-Hop producer (at least one) used it to make beats with, therefore, and open hole worth mentioning to cover my open holes.

There is an 808 kick sampled (and maybe even a snare overlay), but the song and album was largely based on samples form the Ultimate Beats & Breaks series, as was standard tactics at the time for Hip-Hop.

To my ears, the beat is a slowed-down loop of "Amen Brother" (The Winstons) with additional SP-12 programming from Dre.

It's also worth mentioning that a lot of disco tracks used tape loops so while they may sound like real drums they were more like an early form of sampling.

Yup - the drums on "Stayin' Alive" were a tape loop that was later recycled for some of The Bee Gees other disco hits.

Thanks for sharing, Walter and Poppa!

Amen My Brother was on the first edition of Ultimate Beats and Breaks. The inclusion of this song in this series is how it enetered the sampling lexicon.

Discussing Staright Outta Compton is confusing as we could either mean the album or the song independently of one another. I meant the album is largely (not exclusivly) based on Ultimate Beats and Breaks.

I saw Machine Drum joe, kinda intriguing for about a minute. Live drums and electronic sounds and such, but kinda post-IDM or whatever.

I own a Drum Tracks, a DMX with MIDI and an MPC1000. My friend Dan has an old pre-set Univox he's been meaning to bring over. For the MPC I downloaded a set of Acetone sounds and sequences which includes the EXACT rhythm that Crispy Ambulance plays over on the Presence and something similar to Blondie's Heart of Glass. I will say that those two songs, as well as "Nerve Pylon" by the Lines are 3 of my favorite songs that all feature my favorite arranging technique ever, the playing of live drums over chintzy pre-set rhythm box beats.

Dan! This is exactly what I'm going for - I'm considering getting an MPC1000, tho they look kinda pricey. Any advice...? Are you happy with yours? what else should I consider getting with it...? Those Acetone sounds sound totally up my alley...

(yr stack of burned Funkadelic/Eddie Hazel CDs is waiting patiently by my door)

x-post

I read once that since the very start he's written all his songs with a piano and an 808, but sadly has never taken the 808 into the studio. Imagine Cars with an 808 - it would've sounded like Cybotron!

First of all, the MPC is not 1,000, it retails I think around 7 or 800. I paid extra to give it the full RAM, 128 megs. Now from my limited experiance I have to say, I absolutely love the thing. It is incredibly easy to use, mostly very well thought out, very small etc etc. It doesn't have the built in sounds of the 303 or any other roland groovebox type thing, but I've got synths, borrowed and my own.

As far as the MPC line is concerned, for 80% of people, the difference between this and the MPC2000 are negligible, and being a newer model, it's mostly quite a bit better, feature wise, hell, it's got features the 3000 doesn't have, like the Flash Card (brilliant), 2 sliders etc.

It got some bad marks from people but perhaps they were looking to spend a ton of money on something that does everything? I'm running this sync'd to Digital Performer on the Mac and a world of other gear, and it's great. My plan actually is to try using the MPC as the brain, with performer following it, so I can write music using the drum machine and MPC sequencer style, which I find very easy and flexible, then when I'd need something more intense, MIDI-wise, or want to record long tracks of digital audio(which the MPC can't do) do it in the computer.

It's also fun for me because the aformentioned DMX with MIDI has a fucked up battery, so I can't use it to program beats, BUT, I midi'd it up to the MPC and sequence the DMX as a sound module, so I'm using the MPC interface, but get the benefits of the DMX volume controls, individual outputs etc. I'm hoping this will be a monster combination.

Haven't done much else because I seemed to not have enough MIDI cables untill yesterday. I had it controlling a borrowed Roland Juno-1 but didn't have enough cables to play a melody, so I played the synth melody on the MPC pads.

Speaking of, even thout the MPC doesn't have an internal synth sound-source, surely you can download/buy sounds or make your own.

The flash card thing is great but understand that you can't load sounds directly to the MPC from a computer. What happens when you connect a computer to the USB port is it lets your computer see the flash card in the MPC and save sounds to it, which you then have to load. What is AWESOME is this:

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2004/MPC-Pad-187.html

With this little program, what you do is use your computer to make sounds, say make a whole set of 64 drum sounds, saved as WAV files. Then you drag them onto the pads on this program, make some settings for the pads(velocity, filter, fader stuff) then save the "program". Then transfer the program and sounds to the MPC and you're good to go.

also, I don't think people really bother with the USB cable, it's easier just to buy a 20 dollar card-reader for your computer to move sounds back and forth.

We sold one of those here at the shop not too long ago. The best part is pressing multiple keys at the same time, because it will try to mix them together with totally fucked-up/fantastic results (beat cancelation, stutters, etc.) For some reason I keep thinking it was a "Multivox" Rythym Ace, but I could be mistaken...or we're talking about different oddities.

http://www.forat.com/pictures/mpc/DJ%20Swamp7.jpg

Anyway, drum machines... I bought a Korg S3 off Ebay last year for fifty quid, top replace my old Roland R8m. Damn fucking good machine it is as well, though it's a bit uh, unintuitive. They took a bunch of drum hit samples and somehow seperated out the sound of the skin being struck and the sound of the shell ringing, and you mix and match these at different levels, tunings etc to make up yr sound. The sounds can be very realistic, as in when you hit, say, the snare drum pad harder and harder, the tone & response of the sound changes in a very realistic way. You can also mix totally unrelated sounds, & make up some very fucking weird drum sounds. The cymbals are poor, although there's supposedly a pcm card w/better ones on it.

I don't know if I'd destroy anything, really, though the 909 has 0 appeal to me, unlike the 808, which still sounds nice, even after all the over/use it's had over the years.

While I love today's electro revival, the way the electroclash people tend to use 808 rather than Linn annoys me. It just isn't right. The synthpop acts of the early 80s didn't use 808. 808 was first and foremost used in early to mid 80s hip-hop, and was rarely evident in synthpop. Electro acts such as Annie and Kylie, with their extensive use of Linn, get it a lot more right.

I've actually been debating buying the MPD-16 or the Trigger Finger... Anyone own either of these?

Ian North, Jeff & Jane Hudson, and Mandre to thread.

My talk is mostly about the feel of the sequencer, as many producers -- even the mildly experienced ones -- do complain about this down the road...but for the most part, any drum sampler with built in sequencer will do the trick if you're not tuned in to that "feel" aspect. It's really a minor complaint that matters ONLY to record/tech nerds.

Find the sampler that you can afford (software or hardware), and find drum sounds anywhere after the fact. Then make your beats, and never get emotionally down on what you are doing based on other's methods.

http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/SP-505/index.html

It can sample sounds, like some acetone sounds, it has some on-board tones for bass or synth lines, it has tons of effects, uses a smartmedia card as an easy way to get sounds into it.

I just wonder what they mean by 4 Part Pattern Sequencer. But this thing is like 350 or something.

It seems there's a bit of a debate between devotees of the Akai MPC series and those who favour the SX. I haven't used an MPC so can't compare them, but the SX does all I want it to and looks extremely sexy. The MPCs may well be more versatile in terms of sample memory etc but they look a bit drab to me, like overgrown calculators.

MPC sequences have 64 tracks, each program has 64 sounds and you can use different programs per tracks, so it's a much larger machine in that sense. And looking at the Korg's screen, one can tell it's a much more powerful sequencer. But for what most people would want it for, it seems like a good idea. How does that tube thing treat you? Can you tell the difference? Does it sound good?

The Tubes are cool, although the warm glow they seem to emit is in fact generated by a couple of yellow LEDs! But yeah, they definitely add something to the sound, warm analogue distortion yadda yadda yadda.

I'm sure the MPCs are far more powerful, but then on the other hand they seem more aimed at the studio market (although it's possible the hip-hop headz on this board can prove me wrong). Anyway, given the power of software samplers thesedays, who needs a hardware sampler in the studio? I may change my mind in a few months when the lack of memory starts to nag, but you can buy cheap 128meg smartmedia cards for it, although they do take a minute and a half to load. Best start working on the stage patter!

As a beat sampler/mangler and bass-sequencer, it's damn near perfect.
Does it sound good? To my ears, yes it does, emphatically so. Just don't expect to record an album on it.

http://remixmag.com/mag/remix_rock/

Does anyone have an Analogue Rytm MKII? How have you found it?

I want to buy something cheap that just has a good basic thump with adjustable tempo (not looking to program trap or anything like that). Also want to save some preset tempos and sounds. Anyone can recommend item?

The Teenage Engineering PO-32 is a lot of fun

Thanks
But too fiddly and cute

I'd say start with what type of sounds. Are you wanting something that sounds electronic like 808/909, something with samples or something you can load your own samples? Do you want in it's own box or perhaps something with an interface that hooks to a laptop?

You can find old Alesis and Boss drum machines pretty darn cheap used these days.

Anything old and 80s is stupid expensive these days for the most part.

Honestly don’t care what it sounds like too much
Just a beat and tempo and the ability to save a couple of sounds / tempo in memory (for different songs)

Volca Sample?

or the Elektron Model:Samples for a bit more

Is a smartphone app practical or do you need it to be a box?

I can second the Volca Sample. The original Mk1 version is pretty cheap on the used market. Korg also sells the Volca Beats, but it has an odd snare drum sound and a fairly limited sound palette. The Volca Sample lets you load your own samples and the sequencer is very simple. You essentially have only ten patterns, but unlike the other Volcas (and the Sample MkII) you can arrange them into a song that goes e.g. 1-1-1-4-1-1-2-4-1-1-1-4 etc, whereas with the other Volcas you can't, off the top of my head, write a sequence that repeats a pattern.

The Volca Sample is in theory a sample player, but Korg seems to have intended it to be used as a drum machine, e.g. you can't just plug in a MIDI keyboard and play an instrument up and down the musical scale. And the original has an annoying MIDI spec that puts the ten instruments on Midi channels 1-10, instead of putting them on CDEFGABCDE on Midi channel 1.

I also have a Behringer RD8, which is a clone of the TR808. It has a much more flexible sequencer and it's great fun to jam with because it's huge! Big clicky buttons and knobs. And it has balanced outs. But it's just an 808, so if you want breakbeats or any other kind of drum sound you're stuffed. Behringer also makes an RD9 clone of the TR909. The company gets a lot of stick for copying other designs, but Roland is utterly unwilling to just remake its old analogue / digitally-controlled-analogue equipment, even as expensive limited editions. Its modern equipment is all virtual, and some of it has irritating limitations, e.g. four-note polyphony or reduced multi-timbrality.

The frustrating thing is that if you want a really accessible, powerful drum machine as a learning tool the Akai MPC or aforementioned Elektrons are great, but they're not cheap because the MPC has a massive cult following in the hip-hop world and the Elektrons are made in limited numbers by a small company. It's like how the Erika Syntrx would be a super introduction to synthesis - and the world would be a better place if every curious eight-year-old was allowed to play with one - but it's £2,500. And discontinued.

As for smartphone apps, I can recommend Patterning, which I have on my iPad Mini:
https://www.olympianoiseco.com/apps/patterning/

The interface is genius:
https://www.olympianoiseco.com/site/assets/files/1072/patterning_-_main.0x600.png

And it has some clever probability functions that let you generate random fills.

Thanks Milo will check those
Ahh no iOS apps please I hate Apple

It's like how the Erika Syntrx would be a super introduction to synthesis - and the world would be a better place if every curious eight-year-old was allowed to play with one - but it's £2,500. And discontinued

There's a new one coming, it's only, uh, $2100.