Roll Deep Feature In The Guardian

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'We're not just moody hood-rats'

Roll Deep live among guns and drugs - but they don't want to rap about it. Hattie Collins visits their east London estate

Monday May 23, 2005
The Guardian

The estate Danny Weed and his friends dub Wilehouse is a maze of brown-bricked, four-storey blocks, littered with graffiti, smashed glass and boarded-up shop windows. Canary Wharf overlooks the estate, but it could be in another world. Weed - so named because he used to be "the worst addict. I couldn't go five minutes without a zoot" - has lived in this corner of east London all of his 21 years, sharing a house with his dad, a black-cab driver. His mum and grandmother live a minute's walk away, just by the shops. His friend Target used to live nearby, until he moved to south London five years ago. "Canary Wharf is like our Statue of Liberty," says Target, surveying the futuristic financial district. "It pushes me on. It's like all the money is there and it's an inspiration to get your own."

Most of Target's friends from the estate want to follow his example and leave. You can hear it in on Let It Out, one of the tracks on In at the Deep End, the album they have recorded together as Roll Deep: "I've seen the road to success, I'm getting out of here. If we're patient, we can all get out of here." The line is delivered by producer and MC Richard "Wiley Kat" Cowie, considered by many to be the frontman of Roll Deep. The 26-year-old has already found some success - he is said to have sold over 100,000 copies of his singles Eskimo and Ice Rink literally from the boot of his car. But Wiley, like the rest of Roll Deep, is ambitious for more.

It's hard to see how Roll Deep can make much money. There's so many of them: 12-odd MCs - including Breeze, Brazen, Jet Le, Riko, Flow Dan, Scratchy, Manga, Roachee and the excellently named Taliban Trim - plus DJs Karnage and Maximum and producers Wiley, Weed and Target. But when they do come into cash, they roll deep. "Split it in half," says Flow Dan. "Right down the middle."

Flow Dan coined the name in 2001, but the crew first came together in the mid-1990s. Target, Wiley and Flow Dan were all early members; so was Mercury prize-winner Dizzee Rascal. The latter's departure appears not to have had any dramatic effect. "I think he had a different vision to us anyway," shrugs Breeze. "That said," adds Weed, "people could learn a lot from that boy."

As the line-up changed, so did the sound. Now Roll Deep are considered forerunners of the British street sound grime, a name they reluctantly put up with but complain is negative and limiting. A vibrant stew of influences, grime borrows from UK garage, dancehall, eastern instrumentation and video arcade game effects. Not to mention the pop music the crew grew up with. "My mum would hoover listening to Sinéad O'Connor, Bob Marley, Tracy Chapman, Phil Collins," says Weed. "Always music, everywhere. All of us have had that from our families."

Music has already made the crew famous in their area. Up-and-coming rhymer Discarda, 17, Man Fred, 25, and numerous others on baby BMXs patiently follow the boys as they wander about the estate pointing out the sights. "I had a Desert Eagle [gun] put in my face there," Breeze says nonchalantly, nodding towards a second-level landing. "I was being lairy to this guy and he pulled the gun out and said, 'You don't like me, do you?' And then he wanted us to rob a shop with him," he says, shaking his head. "He was on Valium and all that," reckons Target.

They talk casually about the crime that has become a part of everyday estate life; point out "dead man alley", where "a couple" of people have died in mysterious circumstances; reminisce about a man who once got his face blown up; gossip about the crackheads, prostitutes and drug dealers who inhabit their residence. You'd imagine that such violent imagery would inform the majority of their album, but not so. In fact, the MCs have decided to all but steer clear of gun chatter and bad-man metaphors. Alongside lyrics about the worrying rise of gun offences are tales of police harassment, admissions of their fondness for weed and women, and awkward expressions of love.

Of course, violence still creeps in. "We live in the poorest borough in England and we haven't all had perfect happy family lives so if the MCs didn't cover it in some way we'd be lying," says Weed. "But we all went to school and got brought up properly. We're not just some moody hood-rats, we've got something to say."

That's not to say the boys themselves are angels. They constantly clash with other artists, Lethal B's Fire Camp in particular and most recently Demon, while both Riko and Taliban Trim admit to having "done time" for sentences they'd rather not discuss. "Whatever I got nicked for, I'm not that person any more. I know that myself," insists Riko.

But, Riko says, it's up to Roll Deep to show young kids that there's more to lyrical expression than dealing drugs and murdering people - subjects they admit to having covered extensively in the past. "Yout's today don't feel comfortable unless they're being a bad boy. 'Bore you out, my brother's a gunman,' blah, blah," he sighs. "If you chat negative you're supposed to be good, but that's bullshit. There's too many films like Kill Bill and rappers like 50 Cent with his bulletproof vests; turn on the TV and you get the war or look outside and what do you see on your own doorstep? It's too much."

Musically, too, the album veers into the unexpected. Grime has become known as tech-fest of odd bleeps and cutting-edge effects; In at the Deep End, however, offers irreverent samples and insanely catchy choruses that borrow liberally from 1980s bubblegum beats.

"This is a musical album, not just a grime thing," says Riko. "We've always wanted to branch out but we felt like we couldn't before because no one would have took it seriously." Adds Taliban Trim: "I want people to know that we can spit over anything because we're that versatile." While they admit they are concerned that their underground fan base may be disappointed, not finding the album edgy enough, the crew refuse to follow well-worn paths - and in any case, they're convinced other people will scramble to emulate them. "Watch producers try and bite it," smirks Wiley seconds later on Shake a Leg.

For Roll Deep, the point is not to stay in the grime underground. "My dream is to sell more than anyone else in the scene has, to sell more than a million," says Trim. After all, how else will they escape east London?

"It's not like we want to forget where we're from, but I want more than just the underground to hear this album," concludes Danny. "If I'm honest, I'm want the world to hear our music."

In at the Deep End is out on June 6 on Relentless.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 09:02 (twenty-one years ago)

If they wanna make money they should learn Oracle...

Good piece though.

― $V£N! (blueski), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 09:05 (twenty-one years ago)

"Canary Wharf is like our Statue of Liberty,"

Target otm! Canary Wharf is so beautiful.

"Watch producers try and bite it," smirks Wiley

to be honest I am a little afraid that this will happen.

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 09:06 (twenty-one years ago)

"I think he had a different vision to us anyway," shrugs Breeze. "That said," adds Weed, "people could learn a lot from that boy."

Dizzee as Jay-Z, Rolldeep as Wu-Tang?

― $V£N! (blueski), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 09:08 (twenty-one years ago)

admissions of their fondness for weed and women

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 09:12 (twenty-one years ago)

they should spit over nothing compares 2 u

i thoguth this was one of the better newspaper articles about grime.

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 09:55 (twenty-one years ago)

there's so much competition

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 09:55 (twenty-one years ago)

youre right, there isnt much competition and yet i thought this was one of the better newspaper articles about grime. thanks for your insight marcello.

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:03 (twenty-one years ago)

marcello read the memo that said ILMers must bitch at every given opportunity.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I am wiser than you so shut up and absorb my teachings.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:09 (twenty-one years ago)

not a bad piece, but, there is this feeling, has the time passed for them? how well do you think this album will do? theres a curious limbo feel about roll deep, in a way. the wu-tang comparisons seem to be thrown in here and there, but they don't seem to emulate them much at all (or to have attempted to, really), but the wu-tang model seems the one most likely to be a platform for bigger success?

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:12 (twenty-one years ago)

The actual album itself just sounds like bad Brit R&B.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:13 (twenty-one years ago)

topple your arch nemesis petridis and i might consider it.

re: wu-tang, wu-tang never compromised to get noticed. they stayed 'true' to their original ethos.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Mariah Carey Featuring Ol Dirty Bastard to thread.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:14 (twenty-one years ago)

wu-tang's entire career pre-1996 to thread.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:17 (twenty-one years ago)

The album is mostly not very good at all. I hope it doesn't do well because it'd be disappointing to see more grime artists go in this direction (especially when r&b elements are beginning to be incorporated really well into grime with the r&g tracks coming out now). I can see 'The Avenue' being a one-off novelty hit unfortunately. And this is coming from someone who usually likes pop!grime.

It is a good article though.

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:17 (twenty-one years ago)

re: wu-tang, wu-tang never compromised to get noticed. they stayed 'true' to their original ethos.

http://www.swr3.de/__pix/cover/500x435/5074.jpg

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:19 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe in at the deep end is a tacit acknowledgement of grimes unpopularity, or rather its slim chance of the sort of mainstream success that the protagonists want. maybe wiley knows the game is up? therefore, just goes mental with the production.

i love the album btw

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:20 (twenty-one years ago)

well if more fire crew's brilliant oi could get on top of the pops, and fwd can get in the top 20, even if its rubbish, grime artists shouldnt be so fucking cynical.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:22 (twenty-one years ago)

re: wu-tang, well, both sides are correct here, in a way. i think blahblahrian is right to an extent in that wu-tang stayed 'true' (however you want to define it) prior to and including their first big successes. they may well have gone against that later in their career, but that was after they were established?

i havent heard the roll deep album, but theres a definite feeling they have to succeed with this one, or its over (not something wu-tang were faced with circa 36 chambers?)

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:23 (twenty-one years ago)

but roll deep are talking about empires, about long term success? i think they're sort of trying to look 'beyond' that one off hit?

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes because Soul II Soul and So Solid did that so brilliantly didn't they?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:28 (twenty-one years ago)

More digital Kapitalists. Exactly what the world needs at this late hour.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)

roll deep have made a whole album of tracks like wu tang might have done if they did a whole album with bloody texas. they have gone straight for the soft white gut of the lowest common denominator and while i like this album, its essentially like hearing the black eyed peas of grime.

wu-tang might have done the odd single or done the odd collaboration for the pop charts but never so insultingly/half-heartedly and they only did it in spurts. tical might have spawned the mary j duet, but that album was as grungy and goth as hip hop could have gotten in 94.

roll deep will never create an an empire cos theyre too busy second guessing the great british public. they will never win like this, nor will they be respected. theyre gonna be 'stuck' (their words) in the underground, but now theyre gonna be commercial failures too, who compromised, but sadly failed at it. if youre gonna 'sell out', at least sell out of the shops too. of course, this is just ominous forecasting, hopefully they will sell some units.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Are Roll Deep not leading with a single from the album? That seems to be an interesting commercial stratergy...

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:35 (twenty-one years ago)

blahbarian sadly otm. Though I retain some hope that this is a one-off 'novelty' album and after it (hopefully) sells shit all Wiley and his boys can go back to doing good music like we know they can again.

I have no problem with grime adding commercial elements, I'm pretty much Shystie's only defender on ILM, but if you're going to do that you have to make it...not lame and weak like In At The Deep End. KWhat I've heard of the Kano album does it perfectly, actually, apart from 'Typical Me'.

Or like the Crazy Titch/Keisha Sugababes duet! I'm convinced that could have been a decent-sized hit had it been a proper single.

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Dom, 'The Avenue' will be the lead single and will be released a few weeks after their album. Have we mentioned yet that most grime artists have no commercial sense whatsoever?

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:36 (twenty-one years ago)

grime wants to sell millions. a one of "hit" (no. 12 in the charts or something?!?!) isnt going to establish grime as a genre with mass appeal, or even recognition. i estimate, apropos of nothing, that 70-80% of a listening audience in this country would have no idea what you were talking about if you talked about grime, roll deep, wiley etc. dizzee is the nearest point of reference. But grime is looking to emulate hiphops model in the states, of worldwide recognition, and certainly as the urban music of choice nationally. if you go to other cities in the UK you will be lucky to hear any grime, whatever RWD say.

as for the album, it still soudns a lot stranger than the commercial r'n'b pap being described by anyone here. i really dont see it as "pop", in the popular sense, and i think it will bomb. I think this mayeb wileys last throw of the dice. that doesnt go for all of roll deep, i think riko, trim for instance have enough presence/character/persona to build on it. cf kano when he was in nasty.

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:37 (twenty-one years ago)

the most obvious parallel between wu-tang and roll deep, musically at least, is that danny weed is 4th disciple to wiley's rza. but thats as far as it goes. roll deep have no real plan for world or even city domination, like wu-tang did. they only get the wu comparisons because of the size of the crew, just like so solid did. but thats as far as it goes.

the weird thing is that the R&G stuff is way better than the R&B shit on roll deeps album. i mean, wiley did grime meets R&B way better himself on special girl in 2004....

as for the kano album, well that seems like a (musically) innovative hip hop album more than a grime one. i suppose its getting blurrier though.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there anything on this Rolldeep album as good as So Solid Crew's fantastic 'Colder' then?

― $V£N! (blueski), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:44 (twenty-one years ago)

this roll deep album is closer to second verse than they dont know.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)

there are actually a couple of great songs on the Roll Deep album, it's not total shit - eg 'When I'm 'Ere' is fantastic (no coincidence that during their dreadful show at the Stratford grime night this was the only song to actually get an enthusiastic response).

I want grime to sell millions too but a) this is not the way to do it, and b) I think it can sell millions doing what it does, kind of - the music is not the barrier, the distribution &c is.

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Did So Solid's second album really contain the line "I shoot you, but not with a gun, with a camera", or have I been misinformed?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I want grime to sell millions too but a) this is not the way to do it

The question is then, what is the way to do it? Because I was looking at the Radio 1 playlist a minute ago, and there appear to be very few in-roads.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:50 (twenty-one years ago)

lets be honest, british rappers have never sold well. the aim is to stop aiming for the crass channels of the mainstream and take a less predictable route. people can maintain careers without taking the lowest common denominator.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:52 (twenty-one years ago)

The route to take is the same one that Roots Manuva, Dizzee Rascal, and Ms Dynamite have taken: aim for the broadsheet/Mercury fanbase, and hope for a trickle-down effect.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:55 (twenty-one years ago)

also, make the most of people like Keisha Sugababes being willing to work with you while on hiatus from their mainstream careers!

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:56 (twenty-one years ago)

dynamites album wasnt that good really, a big mish mash, too much 'let me show you how versatile i am' instead of MCing like on 'boo'. but yeah, roots manuva and dizzee are ideal references.

i saw keisha at the de la soul gig in kentish town the other day. shes tiny!

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:04 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost- Canary Wharf beautiful ???!!! Wooah! Best ILM joke evah.

― snotty moore, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:10 (twenty-one years ago)

ppl act like oi and fwd were uncompromising majorlabel gauntlets thrown down at the cowed british public and all that - but it ws pure street pressure over a long period of time. fwd dropped in january to no greater acclaim than straight, or pull up dat, or countdown riddim and then caught some weird random stratospheric vibe JUST LIKE TRU POP DOES (fuck a commercial sense) (to an extent) (look its complicated)(i blame rachel stevens) and it ended up vaguely challenging for xmas #1, with like 60% of sales probly down to grimeists buying it all over again for fun out of solidarity.

ima side with ambrose here; hearing the dull dull useless dull apologist rmx of 'the avenue', hearing kano's slickly uninspiring desire just to be competent, i came to be so glad that roll deep dared to be rubbish in the first place. twisted!

and the limbo feel charltonlido outlines... what does becoming established in england, that middle stage posited here between underground realness and overground "soft white gut" (whtvr) actually look like? does it just look like a cd-shaped official end-of-year-list document of what anyone who would already care already knows? why this contradictory confidence in albums as proof of pop penetration anyway? roll deep are the ppl's champs, streets locked without question by now, and have already paid their uncompromising dues surely. and it's not like they stopped being grimey is it, unrelenting pirates, 12s, riddims are still runnning parallel to everything, more than any other crew this year i should think.

― hold tight the private caller (mwah), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder how much feedback Hattie Collins got abt her original, awful grime piece in the Saturday Guardian. I hope "lots", but this is pretty good. When I'm 'Ere and Bus Stop off the Roll Deep album are great but some of it is shocking. I'd be amazed if any of it had the slightest resonance with the "Mercury fanbase", though

― DJ Mencap0))), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:31 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, maybe this is the dawn of a new duality for grime artists - please middle england one hand and keep the underground locked simultaneously. interesting if they manage it. perhaps this will be the way forward and a new career plan for all subsequent crews to manage. just seems a bit cynical, or at least dour, and a bit of a shame, really.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:33 (twenty-one years ago)

It would be sort of like the 'stringsing up' of reggae in the 70s to get it into the UK charts, except the two markets are in the same country.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:40 (twenty-one years ago)

well the closest analogy i can think of would be rappers like 50 cent doing underground mixtapes while being signed to aftermath.

― blahbariantheoriginal, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm really ignorant of the mixtape hiphop stuff, is it stylistically different from the mainstream stuff the same acts do?

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

however.

the funny thing is, i bet kano's album is going to end up sounding quite listenable as a whole, and might do v well. but hearing each track slip out by itself, be it radio 1 or internet leak, has been massively underwhelming. 156 diff directions - yet is there a single in there? its an interesting relationship.

(cmon the album thing shdnt be too hard to disprove, chop chop ppl)

― hold tight the private caller (mwah), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

im doign an empirical test on the album (well the Rollin Deeper version- no promos for me!), otherwise known as listening to it, to identuify this stinking rotten r'n'b core that infests it.

track 1 (intro) 0- hiphop bombast
track 2 - sort of r'n'bish, but ice puck sounds and squaling anachronistic guitar makes it un-beverly knight to me.
track 3 - sort of hiphop, in the aim high style. why does everyone like this shit on the aim high mixtape but not on this album. i hate targets piano lines.
track 4 - shake a leg......r;n;b?!?!?!!? amerie will be doing really cheap, bad samba music, with dead cheesey and funny lines like "this is loco to flow to"??!?!?!?! i dont reckon!
track 5 - more guitar power moves. did they make r'n'b 20 years ago? wasnt it caleld soul then or something?
track 6 - they dont know. target puts in accordian instead of piano, thank fuck. this is sort of r'n'b ish (i dont even know what that m,eans i guess).
track 7 - okay, this is the killer tune. a straight rip of somethign straight outta 198?. kids laugh at this stuff, they dont buy it.
track 8 - ground zzero. straight eski
track 9 - sortta eski/hiphop. bit boring
track 10 - the first straight up r'n'b tune ive got to. doesnt seem that bad as it goes. nice harp (?!) line. alex whatshername (is it her?) is a competent singer.
track 11 - more piano target badness. this is hiphop, i guess.
track 12 - i guess this is another r'n'b track. that makes 2 so far.
track 13 - the avenue. this isnt pop. this isnt hiphop. this isnt rnb. this is just.........fucking weird! off the chain! the only people that listen to this music are 50 yr olds in social clubs! check they bit where some one tuenlessly sings along! awesome! zemko is right, the avenures remix is so boring, spineless.
track 14 - eski. this is pretty good!
track 15 - more grime
track 16 - YES! more fucked up 80s soul funk stuff! still not pop, as in modern pop music!
track 17- bit boring target hiphop.
track 18 - yep, its kinda r'n'bish
track 19 - decent hiphop sortta tune.
track 20 - final rnb tune.

that makes 4 out of 20 by my count. i think people need to go back and listen to some of those mixtapes! all grime comps etc have X number of lameish hiphop/rnb tunes, why is this album any different?
i realsie that my "rundown" has cruely exposed my lack of knowledge about any of this shit, but it realyl does strike me that you are overstating the commercial/pop/rnb aspects of this album. just cos it doesnt all sound like "frontline riddim"!

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

roll deep are the ppl's champs, streets locked without question by now

like, yeah...

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:23 (twenty-one years ago)

man go away and discover 'oh my gosh' again

― hold tight the private caller (mwah), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:32 (twenty-one years ago)

okay!

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

haha

― the black hand, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

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