What's interesting, though, is that people like Elvis and Billie Holiday are assumed to have a "voice" or point of view that binds their records into something that can be discussed as a body of work. Now that doesn't happen so much to pure performers. Since rockism, I guess.
So, then, who since 1980 is the greatest artist without any interest in songwriting? Whose persona/vocal performance/etc. makes his/her contribution as a songwriter totally irrelevant?
― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:12 (twenty-one years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)
― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:21 (twenty-one years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:21 (twenty-one years ago)
― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)
I mean Shakin' Stevens...
― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:24 (twenty-one years ago)
― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:24 (twenty-one years ago)
― peter smith (plsmith), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)
― ()ops (()()ps), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:26 (twenty-one years ago)
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)
― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:30 (twenty-one years ago)
― Ian Riese-Moraine's Plateau Rouge! (Eastern Mantra), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:32 (twenty-one years ago)
― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:32 (twenty-one years ago)
― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:34 (twenty-one years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:35 (twenty-one years ago)
― ()ops (()()ps), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:35 (twenty-one years ago)
― ()ops (()()ps), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:40 (twenty-one years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:41 (twenty-one years ago)
The Corporation (Berry (apparently), Holland, Dozier and Holland, and a couple of others I think).
― BARMS, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)
Actually, I think the order of who really got dre where he is looks more like (in order):
Lonzo WilliamsYellaDr. Rock (The Fila Fresh Crew)Ice Cube (CIA)Steve Yano (Roadium Swap Meet record dealer)Eazy EDre Tray (The DOC)Jerry HellerThe California RaisinsThe DOC again by introducing him to...Suge KnightSnoopEminem
Those samples/riffs (et al) wouldn't have been in plae without Lonzo bailing out Dre from jail over parking tickets.
― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:45 (twenty-one years ago)
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:46 (twenty-one years ago)
if he'd only written billie jean you'd still be out of your damn mind
― jones (actual), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:50 (twenty-one years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:52 (twenty-one years ago)
― brianiac (briania), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:57 (twenty-one years ago)
The word "any" makes this a difficult question ... I think Britney didn't write anything on her first two albums, but has been somewhat involved in the songwriting process since then. Aaliyah was also named, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised to see artists whose best work came at the hands of the uberproducers (Timba, Neptunes, etc.) appearing on this thread.
― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:58 (twenty-one years ago)
vs.10 songs he co-wrote or didn't write at all:Baby Be Mine, Black or White, Human Nature, In the Closet, Man in the Mirror, Off the Wall, P.Y.T., Remember the Time, Rock With You, Thriller
(in almost all cases I picked singles or otherwise notable hits)
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)
― Douglas (Douglas), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:12 (twenty-one years ago)
― Huk-L, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:14 (twenty-one years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:21 (twenty-one years ago)
― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)
― Huk-L, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)
As of a few years ago, Margo Timmins had exactly 1 co-writing credit to her name ("Misguided Angel", on The Trinity Sessions). I don't know if she counts, though, since she is really "Cowboy Junkies" and her brother/band-mate writes everything. (But their first two records are mainly covers, and are the best things they did.) Not certain Margo Timmins is a "greatest artist" either.
Judy Collins really didn't write much (and really didn't have much of a career post-1980, I guess). Joan Baez has only written a few songs, and pretty much limits herself to covers. Emmylou Harris has 2-3 records of original material and countless covers on which her (well-deserved) reputation rests. Linda Ronstadt's career was pretty much entirely built on covers, too. There hasn't been so much of it post-1980, but she was certainly a widely popular artist in, say, 1979. x-post Tina Turner very OTM.
Then there's Leontyne Price . . .
And finally, Elvis Costello seems to have built his entire career on performing songs written or co-written by D. MacManus.
― Vornado, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)
― Vornado, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 19:58 (twenty-one years ago)
This makes sense in light of an overall shift toward the exploration of timbre and sonic possibilities rather than melodic, harmonic, or lyrical possibilities. A band like Stereolab can be seen as "covering" the styles of different artists because they have an interest in sound over text (people who covered Dylan) or harmony (jazz tunes based on the chords of standards).
― walter kranz (walterkranz), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)
― walter kranz (walterkranz), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:22 (twenty-one years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:26 (twenty-one years ago)
― Brian Miller (Brian Miller), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)
x-post
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)
― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)
-- gygax!
the ventures haven't done anything in the last 25 years!
― kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)
Well, the physical recording is also protected (which is I believe what most sampling lawsuits are based on) but you can't copyright a drum beat, the squelchy 303 acid sound, backwards guitar, etc. Obviously that's not a bad thing but I think it's clear that our copyright system considers the melody and lyrics of a song to be the only pieces of value. And in turn that's reflected in the value that the general public places on originality in songwriting.
― walter kranz (walterkranz), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)
besides everything else that's been said, a key difference has been that artists have figured out how much money there is to be made in publishing. 40 years ago, you'd find producers' and even disc jockeys' names on songs they had nothing to do with writing. in more recent years, artists have joined that part of the party themselves, to the point that if a major artist didn't write any of his/her own stuff these days, there may well be know way of knowing because they're gonna make sure their name is on their songs anyway. i assume if, say, elvis was starting out today, he'd have lots and lots of writing credits.
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:48 (twenty-one years ago)
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:50 (twenty-one years ago)
― walter kranz (walterkranz), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 20:55 (twenty-one years ago)
― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 21:15 (twenty-one years ago)
― Brian Miller (Brian Miller), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)
Which is why I don't trust co-writing credits unless said act has at least some solo writing credits.
Anyway, the obvious answer to this until "Standing On The Shoulder Of Giants" would be Liam Gallagher.
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)
Noel pretty much wrote everything first couple of albums.
― Viz (Viz), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 23:19 (twenty-one years ago)
-- kyle (akmonda...), May 24th, 2005 2:35 PM. (akmonday)
That's what you think you filthy, filthy rockist:
http://www.theventures.com/
― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 23:22 (twenty-one years ago)
1) That those who pick the material for pop singers nowadays have completely lost interest in anything of quality.
2) That all the halfway decent songwriters would rather perform their own material than entrust it to the likes of Sony, WEA and Celine Dion.
As a result, you're left with stuff that doesn't aspire to anything greater than teen pop -- which is fine for what it is, but not exactly Sinatra or Dusty Springfield. Which can only mean the most important artist of the last 25 years who doesn't write his or her own material is:
Justin Timberlake. I mean, the guy's helped re-elect a president with that Super Bowl routine.
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 23:45 (twenty-one years ago)
And it seems like James Taylor stopped writing his own songs a really long time ago ...
― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 23:50 (twenty-one years ago)
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 00:29 (twenty-one years ago)
― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)
Is Klaus Nomi eligible under this restriction? (Finally saw The Nomi Song this past weekend. I could probably say more, but right now my biggest suspicion is that Taco was intended to be a Nomi ripoff.)
― j.lu (j.lu), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 01:19 (twenty-one years ago)
― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 01:29 (twenty-one years ago)
― Sasha (sgh), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 05:36 (twenty-one years ago)
― zeus, Wednesday, 25 May 2005 07:44 (twenty-one years ago)
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)
Or people whose output is mainly trad stuff--Eliza Carthy, Nic Jones, Jean Redpath.
― The Mad Puffin, Wednesday, 25 May 2005 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)
― The Mad Puffin, Wednesday, 25 May 2005 12:23 (twenty-one years ago)
Paul Young still falls somewhat outside of this, since "Come Back And Stay" and "Everything Must Change", two of his biggest hits, were both his own songs. Plus the entire "Between Two Fires" album as well.
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)
― Huk-L, Wednesday, 25 May 2005 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)
― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 13:45 (twenty-one years ago)
I mean, before 1980, there would be Ray Charles, The Surpremes, The Four Tops, The Temptations, The Monkees, The Hollies (pre 1966 anyway), Gerry & The Pacemakers, Dionne Warwick, Jackson Five, Sweet, Donna Summer, Chic, that is, lots of obvious greats, and then, what is there left after 1980? Not a lot, I would say.
It seems like the pre-1980 songwriters were a bit more busy trying to create art while today's professional songwriters are most of all trying to make money.
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 19:15 (twenty-one years ago)
― Mike O. (Mike Ouderkirk), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 23:37 (twenty-one years ago)
must be that "poverty of ambition" Bono was talking about.
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 25 May 2005 23:38 (twenty-one years ago)
But who cares anyway?
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 26 May 2005 00:46 (twenty-one years ago)
― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Thursday, 26 May 2005 02:01 (twenty-one years ago)
― chris andrews (fraew), Thursday, 26 May 2005 02:20 (twenty-one years ago)
― shine headlights on me (electricsound), Thursday, 26 May 2005 02:48 (twenty-one years ago)
― kit brash (kit brash), Thursday, 26 May 2005 09:55 (twenty-one years ago)
Fucking take me to court then.
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Thursday, 26 May 2005 10:47 (twenty-one years ago)
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 15 September 2006 22:15 (nineteen years ago)
― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 15 September 2006 22:37 (nineteen years ago)
― Godfrzej Ljang (godfrzej), Friday, 15 September 2006 22:43 (nineteen years ago)
― Period period period (Period period period), Saturday, 16 September 2006 02:35 (nineteen years ago)
― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Saturday, 16 September 2006 03:26 (nineteen years ago)
Dunno, but surely not before "Macarena" or even "Dragosta Din Tei"
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 16 September 2006 13:51 (nineteen years ago)
― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Saturday, 16 September 2006 15:11 (nineteen years ago)
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 16 September 2006 15:28 (nineteen years ago)
― King-a-Ling (King-a-Ling), Saturday, 16 September 2006 16:03 (nineteen years ago)
― RoxyMuzak© (roxymuzak), Saturday, 16 September 2006 18:32 (nineteen years ago)
― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Saturday, 16 September 2006 23:22 (nineteen years ago)
― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Saturday, 16 September 2006 23:38 (nineteen years ago)
Big Daddy Kane wrote most of it.
― kit brash (kit brash), Sunday, 17 September 2006 01:24 (nineteen years ago)
― Marmot (marmotwolof), Sunday, 17 September 2006 01:26 (nineteen years ago)
Has he ever?
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 17 September 2006 07:57 (nineteen years ago)
― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Monday, 18 September 2006 00:24 (nineteen years ago)
not that fantasia could write her own songs ahahahahahaaaaaafasfklndf.
― Emily B (Emily B), Monday, 18 September 2006 03:43 (nineteen years ago)
― Myke. (Myke Weiskopf), Monday, 18 September 2006 08:30 (nineteen years ago)
AALIYAH
― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 18 September 2006 08:35 (nineteen years ago)
-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...) (webmail), Yesterday 8:57 AM. (later) (link)
Yeah, c'mon Geir, you're better than that usually.
Rod's a case in point. I don't know when or why he gave up the writing as he was usually excellent. Just seemed as if he "couldn't be arsed" after a time.
― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 18 September 2006 08:44 (nineteen years ago)
― Romolo Tobias (Romolo), Monday, 18 September 2006 13:04 (nineteen years ago)
― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 18 September 2006 13:05 (nineteen years ago)