"Great genius but little talent"

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...is how Ravel described Hector Berlioz, who he also said was "the greatest of all French composers" so his characterisation of his abilities was clearly meant as a compliment.

Who would you apply this description to?

― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:31 (twenty-one years ago)

David Bowie. And it's a compliment.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:35 (twenty-one years ago)

John Cage?

― Dominique (dleone), Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost
I cant see that one myself. Brian Eno otoh.

― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Eno so OTM it hurts.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Don Van Vliet?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Stevie Ray Vaughn would be the opposite of this, right?

― Ringring, Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:47 (twenty-one years ago)

MES

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Swell Maps, Epic's often great drumming aside

― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I think MES is a great rapper, myself

― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:56 (twenty-one years ago)

time to get off this crapper

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Good luck.

― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 26 May 2005 13:58 (twenty-one years ago)

The first sentence of this review alone justifies the rest. I think he should've given it a 10.0!!!!!! then there would've been even more 'omg wtf' etc.

― mrjosh (mrjosh), Thursday, 26 May 2005 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Wrong thread, Mrjosh.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 May 2005 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Um, oops. That's supposed to go into the Audioslave review thread.

Brian Eno has tons of talent!

― mrjosh (mrjosh), Thursday, 26 May 2005 14:22 (twenty-one years ago)

obv. i have neither genius nor talent

― mrjosh (mrjosh), Thursday, 26 May 2005 14:22 (twenty-one years ago)

That's an interesting quote. (And like Alfred says, not necessarily a putdown at all.) I think the quote would most accurately apply to someone who makes compelling music despite a shortage of any distinctive instrumental, vocal, or compositional abilities. This would suggest a producer, or maybe an arranger. Hmmm...Brian Eno, maybe? Or was he too talented a synth player?

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Thursday, 26 May 2005 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Also: Bowie has no talent for writing a disposable pop song; he needs to "play a character." When he tried to be Paul McCartney on "Tonight" and "Never Let Me Down" he sucked.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 26 May 2005 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

MEATLOAF

― katie, a princess (katie, a princess), Thursday, 26 May 2005 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

This applies to nobody the way I see it. Eno and Bowie certainly both have a kind of talent.

Bowie has no talent for writing a disposable pop song; he needs to "play a character." When he tried to be Paul McCartney on "Tonight" and "Never Let Me Down" he sucked.

I don't follow you one hundred per cent here. Those two albums certainly didn't come out too well (with the exception of "Loving The Alien" and maybe a couple other tracks), but he had a lot of great pop moments before those. "Changes", "Life On Mars", "Starman", "Ashes To Ashes" and "China Girl" are all really great straightforward catchy pop songs.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 26 May 2005 19:40 (twenty-one years ago)

The answer is clearly Sonic Youth.

― darin (darin), Thursday, 26 May 2005 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

ihttp://www.lutheransonline.com/lo/924/FSLO-1091407833-104924.jpg

― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Thursday, 26 May 2005 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

both these words should be tossed

berlioz on ravel would have been much funnier: he could actually write music AND prose

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 26 May 2005 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

actually all five of these words should be tossed

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 26 May 2005 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Ray Charles. People don't get nicknames for no reason. Bruce Springsteen apparently never had a real job ever.

― dave q (listerine), Thursday, 26 May 2005 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)

"he had a lot of great pop moments before those. "Changes", "Life On Mars", "Starman", "Ashes To Ashes" and "China Girl" are all really great straightforward catchy pop songs."

To a point, I agree; but every one of those tunes depends to a large degree on the strength of the persona Bowie's embodied for that album or single (hunky-dory rocket man, etc). Geez, even "Ashes to Ashes": talk about a meta-song, which is certainly hummable but is unintellgible unless you know it's based on "Space Oddity." "China Girl" may be the exception on your list.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 26 May 2005 20:36 (twenty-one years ago)

We need to reach agreement (ha!) on how Ravel views the distinction is between talent and genius before we can really get our teeth into this one. Did he really mean telent as in the ability to play an instrument, as implied by the Eno comparison?

― moley, Thursday, 26 May 2005 21:19 (twenty-one years ago)

he may also mean talent as in (something like) instinctive grasp of classical form (ie mean "classical as in the composed music that came before romantic"): HB wz totally uninterested in the (mostly austrian) conception of form amd musical logic that ruled, and kinda the first big-name composer to go for structures which were "logic-free" and "development-free" in that structural sense - eg symphonie fantastique not really a "symphony" as haydn understood symphonies

(i haven't put that very well)

but the non-performer decription also fits as far as i can remember (and at that timne wz unusual - most composers were pretty high-class keyb players, if not actual professional virtuosos)

(this is all hostage to my ageing memory)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 26 May 2005 21:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm shocked not to see M.I.A.'s name mentioned.

― Curt (cgould), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Irving Berlin? Sonny Sharrock?

― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

JOE MEEK

― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Jandek

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 27 May 2005 15:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Ariel Pink?

― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 27 May 2005 15:17 (twenty-one years ago)

daniel johnston?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 27 May 2005 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Ooh, good call.

― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Friday, 27 May 2005 21:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Joe Meek OTM

― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Saturday, 28 May 2005 00:13 (twenty-one years ago)

The Stooges?

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 28 May 2005 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

wait, no make that Rocket From the Tombs.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 28 May 2005 00:22 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe the Ramones? (I'm not sure if I'm quite "getting" this thread...)

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 28 May 2005 00:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm listening to Rocket From the Tombs right now! It's pretty awesome actually...that Day the Earth Met thingy...

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 28 May 2005 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Most of these examples make no sense. All of these people have some talent whether it's songwriting, singing, production, arrangement, etc. even if they lack talent in other areas.

I can only think of two interpretations where the original quote would make sense. One way it could make sense is as a description of someone who had no natural talent or ability but sort of worked really hard in a technical way and came up with something of genius through sheer toil. That would be a pretty tough one to define though as you would have to know a lot about the artist's life, background, etc. to make that judgement call. I can't think of any examples myself.

You could also interpret the quote as applying to an artist who makes no worthwhile work in their chosen field yet displays an all-around genius through the ideas they talk or write about. I can't think of any convincing examples of that type of person either.

I suppose a third possibility would be someone who sort of naively chances upon ideas that later end up seeming "genius" due to their influence. I think that might be a bit of a stretch of the term genius though.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Saturday, 28 May 2005 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)

the ramones

― Aerodynamic (Aerodynamic), Saturday, 28 May 2005 01:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Walter, I think your second interpretation comes closest. I take it to mean little conventional, developed talent within the expected musical disciplines, as opposed to meaning no innate gifts of any kind. Talent isn't necessarily purely natural.

― Curt (cgould), Saturday, 28 May 2005 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Bruce Springsteen apparently never had a real job ever.

HAHA that makes so much sense in so many different ways.

― Cunga (Cunga), Saturday, 28 May 2005 02:02 (twenty-one years ago)

David Gilmour

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Saturday, 28 May 2005 02:25 (twenty-one years ago)

This quote makes no real sense to me, especially when applied to well-known musicians. Or maybe you could say The Shaggs or something. But if it's someone who has written music, performed it, produced albums, and/or held concerts where a large audience was present and enjoyed it....wouldn't you say that takes a certain amount of talent?

I can see how this quote could be used to heap praise on people that do things differently than others, but the 'little talent' bit is just silly. For most people, picking out a tune on a piano with one finger is a great accomplishmet, and even making bar chords on a guitar takes some effort and intuitive knowledge of the instrument-music relationship.

I think without talent (if by talent you're talking about Musical Chops) genuis would simply go unoticed.

― Adam Bruneau (oliver8bit), Saturday, 28 May 2005 18:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Ravel might have avoided all this confusion is he had said, "Great genius but comparatively little talent, when you consider the other musical greats who were all child prodigies, then still had to work their butts off mastering all the expected forms of composition before they even had a chance to express their unique genius. You know, like your Mozarts, your Beethovens, your Schuberts."

― Curt (cgould), Saturday, 28 May 2005 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

The thread was made for Malcolm McClaren.

― tipustiger, Sunday, 29 May 2005 16:33 (twenty-one years ago)

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