The "No Star" Syndrome

no way, their singers were megababes in a sea of frank blacks.

and you know, i listened to slanted & enchanted todays. i still absolutely love it. what are these hundreds of other albums from around then as remarkable?

Fine bands, but they didn't really have the catchy pop sensibilities of either Nirvana or Pavement....also, one what planet do you think the Dwarves could have been a mainstream band?

I agree with Scott, I think your two examples (Kurdt and Malky) actually disprove yr thesis.

So Scott, you don't think there was some sociological shift where the alternative rock stars were now going to be more average guys rather than Dionysian glamour dudes aspiring to geniushood?

xpost I've never actually HEARD the Gories, so I couldn't say...

Also, Pavement "broke" my second year in the dorms...Cut Yr Hair was alwasy on the daily Top 5 show at 5 on the local alternative station that everybody listened too...They weren't totally mainstream, but way more so than the Dwarves...

I think it was more glamor dudes PRETENDING to be regular dudes than actual regular dudes that were big in the 90s...

"You don't think Sonic Youth members had more of an "average guy" persona than Kurt Cobain?"

No way, they were weirdo punk intellectuals. Their music was obviously supposed to have seductive layers.

Absolutely.

"the decadent rock star photos that accompany In Utero"

I don't know the photos. Was there some sort of self-consciousness or irony to them?

doesn't this go back a ways, though? to the james gang and poco. to name two. it pre-dates punk. the we are stars/back to the land/roots utopian ethos. we are all in this together. bare feet. long hair. how many people going to a foghat concert could name their bass player or even knew what he looked like? but as far as alternanation goes, yeah, faceless freeks & geeks were the norm as far as punk and hardcore and alt and the like were concerned. two nirvana precursors, husker du & pixies are famous examples. they had star appeal after the fact, but they were just schlubs playing clubs for a long time. as far as sonic youth go, well, starpower is in the eye of the beholder, but they were and are led by a geeky, gawky record collector from connecticut, and lemme tellya, i look at that sight every morning in the bathroom mirror and it ain't pretty. kobain, on the other hand, always dreamt of glory for his band. he wanted to be the raincoats, but he also wanted to sell a million records and he had no problem using his mug to do it. well, as it turned out, he had a problem doing it, but that's hindsight. did nirvana make a conscious decision not to appear glossy and pop? of course. that wasn't who they were. same with the grateful dead. until they went to heaven and wore white suits. but both bands wanted to look cool. and listen to old blues records in their spare time. and shoot heroin. the keep it simple stupid skool of ripped t-shirt cool is as old as brando & dean.

i can't understand how you'd find the fucking james gang self effacing. nirvana too wanted to be huge. otherwise why deal with butch vig? why contract to geffen and then go record nevermind in madison? why not stay in seattle with jack endino?

i sort of see where you're coming from. but i'm not buying malkmus and cobain as the avatars or whatever. maybe bob mould and matt johnson. i guess i just don't buy this early 90s thing. why not bring eno into it? the guy completely eschewed pop stardom to record wallpaper music and produce!

I'm talking about Nirvana producing MUSIC that had a self-effacing feeling to it. Music that, in stating its case, was not much of a celebration, but more like a timid participation in a particular scene. A staking out of some merely middle-of-the-road underground aesthetic. Did they even give the impression that they thought they were as good as Mudhoney or the Jesus Lizard or Monster Magnet?

I read an interview with Salt Peter from the Dwarves and he talked about the time they played a gig with Nirvana. He said that Cobain knelt and kissed his feet. Why? Because the Dwarves were awesome and Cobain knew it.

a la kurt cobain & the dwarves, IIRC joe walsh got his feet kissed by pete townshend back when james gang opened for the who.

No way! They were much more glam AFTER the haircut in the press photos...they started "dressing up"....before they looked like a total blue collar thrash band. That's why we Metallica fans were so taken aback!

"No Star" is a crock of shit. "Faux-Reluctant Star" might be a better example.

Exactly.

I was in high school when S&E came out, so I'm answering this based on how I felt at the time...but I NEVER thought Pavement were my 'peers' they felt cooler and UPPER CLASS...very snobby rich kids that went to private schools...not commoners....that's how I imagined them. Malkmus was too glamorous to be a "average guy"