Why does Ned Raggett hate Belle and Sebastian with such unbridled intensity?

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And he is normally such a nice mellow fellow

― rodger knight, Tuesday, 31 May 2005 00:49 (twenty-one years ago)

"The Model" is such a good song.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

for the same reason hitler hated the jews.

― Ian John50n (orion), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

He hasn't heard the track "Seymour Stein"

― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 00:52 (twenty-one years ago)

that is one of my least favorite belle & sebastian tracks.

and that's saying something!!

― Ian John50n (orion), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

It is my absolutely favorite track. That's why I'm not a noize dudette.

― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

my favorite is probably either She's Losing It or Me & The Major. I am a corny indie fuck; I ain't no noise dude.

― Ian John50n (orion), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Next you guys are going to try and defend coldplay

― Ugh, Tuesday, 31 May 2005 00:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I think most hated bands have one or two decent tracks in them.

― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)

"seymour stein"?!?!?

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:00 (twenty-one years ago)

YOU WERE ALL YELLOW

xpost

― Ian John50n (orion), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:00 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean, i'm not a noise dude, and i can tell you that song's no good! so limp. (x-p-p-post)

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Short answer: because based on their music, old and new, from Tigermilk to Dear Catastrophe Waitress, I think they suck rocks. The rest of my seething hatred for them is essentially elaboration on this key point.

That said, the amount of extremely fine and friendly folks who adore them or at least parts of their work is truly uncountable, and bless them all, because them are some great peoples who have argued their corner well -- I remember one time Dr. C, a fellow non-appreciator, and I got into it on a thread somewhere years back with the Sinisterites and various fellow travellers and they more than held their own.

But the band still sucks rocks. The only reason I am sad for the existence of the Associates was that Alan Rankine went on to teach the university class that led to the band creating Tigermilk. OH GOD THE PAIN.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

i just bought push barman to open old wounds and i was surprised at how much of the first disc -- essentially all of their early (1997) material sounded so bad and amateurish. but so much after that is really good. if someone didn't think they liked b&s, i think i'd give them dear catastrophe waitress. but ned, if you don't like that, there's really no hope, i guess.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:07 (twenty-one years ago)

'No hope' is a strong phrase but I well understand the emotion behind it. I was thinking about it just now and there is a band who, while not meant to be an equivalent to Belle and Sebastian in terms of sonics and reference points (though there are a lot more than might be guessed), I love with a deep, deep intensity that rivals that which B&S fans feel at their most extreme -- the Walkabouts, Seattle's greatest secret and truly a moving experience in terms of their music and indeed their subject matter, with humor and wit and dark emotion and more. That it moves me, sends me, far more than anything B&S have ever done I don't see as a sign of the Walkabouts' universal superiority -- and I'd hope I wouldn't say that there's 'no hope' for anyone who's sampled their work in toto and found it wanting, it just means they don't like it!

Also, apropos of nothing, I think the Lucksmiths are incredibly freakin' awesome, and apparently they're always given the 'Australian B&S' tag or something. I'd prefer to think of it as the other way around!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:16 (twenty-one years ago)

oh don't take the "no hope" line too seriously, mr. raggett! i have been drinking, that's all. and coincidentally, before i even opened this thread, i was listening to "stay loose," which i like a lot.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:19 (twenty-one years ago)

:-) Be merry with your drink!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

i am! i am having a happy memorial day. i just returned from a bbq at a friend's place, a girl who i haven't seen in seven years but who, quite coincidentally, just moved into an apartment a block away from me.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry to be off-topic!

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

the lucksmiths finally have a song that sounds like belle and sebastian on their new one it's called 'fiction' and it is lovely.

― keith m (keithmcl), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:24 (twenty-one years ago)

im not crazy about them. i mean, i love If you are feeling sinister, but i dont understand the cult following, the rest of it sounds pretty "ehhh"

― JD from CDepot, Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, Ned, but saying that they, "suck rocks" isn't really saying much of anything. Why do you think they suck rocks? IS IT NOT JUST THAT YOU ARE FRIGHTENED BY THE UNFATHOMABLE GENIUS OF THAT MAD SCOT STUART MURDOCH??

― rodger knight, Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't know Mr. Raggett hated B&S until I saw this thread. Strange that a band so quiet and fey and precious can inspire such hate in a man.

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:39 (twenty-one years ago)

i love b&s but even i couldn't take being on sinister with all of the fake sex dreams about stuart murdoch and his arms of sex so i can understand hatred resonating from the bitter aftertaste that their fans leave. i've always though 'if you're feeling sinister' was only ok, boy with the arab strap, catastrophe waitress and tigermilk are all better.

― keith m (keithmcl), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:40 (twenty-one years ago)

so quiet and fey and precious

Precisely. (This is not actually true, ref. my Nick Drake reviews on the AMG among other things.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Stuart really isn't that sexy. He is no stevie jackson or chris geddes.

Also, and this is a bit of a tangent, why is Keith such a republican? Sometimes it makes me so mad that I bite my knuckles until I draw blood. No, not really.

― rodger knight, Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Belle & Sebastian (other than that 'Fold Your Hands Child' and the Gentle Wave albums and 2nd Looper album)

― I.M. (I.M.), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah i mean, i'm not into the cult or whatever, i just think they have a lot of good songs.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 01:52 (twenty-one years ago)

i'd consider myself in the cult if I'd ever met one other person in my whole life who has heard of them much less liked them. I have reverse-backlashism issues.
my point being, "Seymour fucking Stein"??!!!

― tremendoid (tremendoid), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 02:58 (twenty-one years ago)

On the subject of B&S, why do so many people find "Fold Your Hands Child" a disappointment? I think it's their best album. I'm serious. That is a brilliant record. How could you not dig "There's Too Much Love"? I am listening to Belle & Sebastian right now, fuck all y'all h8erz, kthxbye.

― Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 04:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree with Drew Daniel! not at all disappointing, a really great album.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 04:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Is liking the Lucksmiths more than B&S on the "rarest opinion that you possess" thread. 'Cos it should be.

― everything, Tuesday, 31 May 2005 04:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Hatred from many probably stems from the fact they never stop posturing, ever.

I really like them though.

For fun, Google Image Search the words "cuddly" and "adorable" and then photoshop a certain color over the entire picture you selected for a random potential B&S album cover.

― Cunga (Cunga), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 04:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Fold Your Hands is my favorite too, Drew, but I've given up that fight. Sinister indeed.

― tremendoid (tremendoid), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 04:40 (twenty-one years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/etienne_saint/girl_sad2.jpg

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 04:57 (twenty-one years ago)

roffling now

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 05:00 (twenty-one years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/etienne_saint/_728517_children_eating3002.jpg

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 05:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I can put the earlier albums on in the background and they're pleasant enough - but I'd much rather listen to old records on Creation. However, their very recent stuff really surprised me and I love it - it's very sexy!

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 06:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Is liking the Lucksmiths more than B&S on the "rarest opinion that you possess" thread. 'Cos it should be.

no. i listen to the luckies much more than B&S, even if i find their very early work (first two albums at least) almost unlistenable compared to their more sophisticated stuff. and marty may not be an overall better lyricist than murdoch, i think he hits home far more often.

― shine headlights on me (electricsound), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 06:14 (twenty-one years ago)

but i think...

― shine headlights on me (electricsound), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 06:15 (twenty-one years ago)

a truly awful band, maybe the worst ever. so limp and fey. cardigans and hairclasps and acting childlike while looking haggard. Like Ned says though, the more i meet fine people (mostly from here) who like B&S the more i think i might be wrong but then i hear them again and realise i'm not.

― jed_ (jed), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 09:41 (twenty-one years ago)

(whispers) He's a goth.

― flowersdie (flowersdie), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 13:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I like those two fake covers by Gear! there. More please!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 13:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Geez, Ned. You get hate for hating Belle, I get hate for digging the Go-Betweens. Did no one party enough on Memorial Day?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 13:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I was recuperating from partying. And the Go-Betweens are great so you do not stand alone.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 13:14 (twenty-one years ago)

the one after sinister was rubbish, i havent listened since, except for that disco one that was silly

maybe i will give the later stuff another go.

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Gear those were brilliant!

― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/etienne_saint/xlight_urplex2.jpg

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/etienne_saint/ShakinTheGoodies2.jpg

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

The river of Ned's machismo has run over its banks!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 15:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 53 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

:-)

― jed_ (jed), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 19:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I just figured out who KeefW is.

― Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Did you? Who am I? Who are you?

― KeefW (kmw), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

And are we all together?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:44 (twenty-one years ago)

six months pass...

This is a good thread. However, it answered nothing. Ned evaded the question with ferocious skill. They "suck rocks"? What does that mean? Why do they "suck rocks"?!?!? I demand an answer, now, sir.

― jazzy jeff, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:50 (twenty years ago)

I beg your pardon, I was misquoted. They rock sucks.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:56 (twenty years ago)

Furthermore, you never them.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:56 (twenty years ago)

ned would erase any belle and sebation he could if he could

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:02 (twenty years ago)

Isn't "sucks rocks" an oxymoron? The band either sucks or it rocks. Pick a side dude.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

Why are there so many people who agree with me about the Belle and Sebastian?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:17 (twenty years ago)

Belle and Sebaschant has gone off the internet because of you.

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:30 (twenty years ago)

Here is a nice boy he plays the guitar not well, Stuarty.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:32 (twenty years ago)

"The Model" is such a good song.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:33 (twenty years ago)

He is a raggett, and he's ha-ting stuart
*NEOW* -- *NeowneowNEOW* *NEOW* -- *Nih* *neow*

― dali madison's nut (donut), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

DeedledeedledeedledeedledeedleDEEDEEDEE

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:37 (twenty years ago)

Ned is wrong about this.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:47 (twenty years ago)

"this"

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:48 (twenty years ago)

;-)

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:49 (twenty years ago)

More than this
You know, there's nothing

*shakes out empty sleeve of a hand-pressed hyperpolyvinyl limited edition of an outtake of a single of a support band for the B&S World Tour of the Hebrides in 1996*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:53 (twenty years ago)

Forgot how much coke was in that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 23:47 (twenty years ago)

ned, blees and spation are up ok hill.

― howell huser (chaki), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 23:50 (twenty years ago)

i avoided b&s for years and years cos i was pretty positive i'd hate them. i finally heard an entire album a couple weeks ago and i kinda...like them! wow!

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 22 December 2005 00:04 (twenty years ago)

i luuuuuuurve them. you guys get worked up over everything.

belle and sebastian are a perfectly nice and pleasant little band.

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Thursday, 22 December 2005 00:10 (twenty years ago)

I don't hate Belle & Sebastian, but I'm the only one I know who's favorite member of the band is every and anyone but Stuart Murdoch.

― Michael F Gill (Michael F Gill), Thursday, 22 December 2005 00:38 (twenty years ago)

I can't believe someone unironically claimed Lightning Bolt are a better band than B&S. That's just wrong on so many levels it's absurd.

― Nathaniel (Horbgorbling Slubberdegullion), Thursday, 22 December 2005 01:25 (twenty years ago)

It's not absurd when you consider there are pootentially 5.3 billion opinions in the world.

― Michael F Gill (Michael F Gill), Thursday, 22 December 2005 01:29 (twenty years ago)

I can't believe someone unironically claimed Lightning Bolt are a better band than B&S.

Well, now you know two people who think that. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 22 December 2005 01:34 (twenty years ago)

Three.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 22 December 2005 01:39 (twenty years ago)

Wow. I generally don't mind noisy stuff, but Lightning Bolt have just always majorly rubbed me the wrong, while I still think it's pretty hard to refute that B&S write some great pop songs.

Oh well, you're the AMG writer here and I'm just the lowly fanboy. *shrug*

― Nathaniel (Horbgorbling Slubberdegullion), Thursday, 22 December 2005 01:59 (twenty years ago)

Oh good lord, it doesn't matter what I write for or whatever, if you love B&S thousands of times more than Lightning Bolt, then by god stick with what you know is right for you. I just feel differently, is all.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 22 December 2005 02:03 (twenty years ago)

Geez, that was sarcasm in the first place.

― Nathaniel (Horbgorbling Slubberdegullion), Thursday, 22 December 2005 02:07 (twenty years ago)

Tone is tricky.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 22 December 2005 02:15 (twenty years ago)

If Ned hates them, I might consider selling those old EP's I haven't listened to since Lizbeth stopped returning my phone calls in '98.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 22 December 2005 02:27 (twenty years ago)

horrible band, one of the worst ever. easy to avoid these days though!

― jed_ (jed), Thursday, 22 December 2005 02:31 (twenty years ago)

I must admit a weakness for their Trever Horn-helmed tomfoolery.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 22 December 2005 02:37 (twenty years ago)

I still think it's pretty hard to refute that B&S write some great pop songs.

Who cares about great songs if they're performed in such a terrible way.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 22 December 2005 02:41 (twenty years ago)

What's so terrible about their performances? Not being a contrarian here, but I honestly cannot fathom the hate they get.

― Nathaniel (Horbgorbling Slubberdegullion), Thursday, 22 December 2005 03:09 (twenty years ago)

this thread had so much pootential

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 22 December 2005 03:15 (twenty years ago)

Twas written:

> Isn't "sucks rocks" an oxymoron? The band either sucks or it >rocks. Pick a side dude.

As this fantastic album made clear:

http://stereolaffs.com/rockrot.php

a band may rock, rot or rule.

― Matt Sab (Matt Sab), Thursday, 22 December 2005 16:40 (twenty years ago)

I would like to hear Lightning Bolt, one day.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 22 December 2005 18:10 (twenty years ago)

Still?

Those covers upthread are terrific!

― the snowfox, Friday, 23 December 2005 11:20 (twenty years ago)

Lightning Bolt (live mp3, but they are supposed to be better live)
Sleater Kinney (who actually rock non-anemically)

I really don't 'get' LB... all the talk of close-up live performances and lo-fi purity in their sound seems to be one big fucking excuse for "we play a bit fast, have amps, don't have much cohesion (the incredibly loose drummer & tense, nervy but actaully pretty average guitarist seem incapable of interplay on most things I've heard so far).

I dunno, I'd say you're not missing much but I expect I'll be proved wrong someday. There must be something behind the effervescent praise?

― Merry Christmas (fandango), Friday, 23 December 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

I dunno, they just sound live they're 'jamming' in three minute bursts all the time to me :/ not 'noize' to me.

― Merry Christmas (fandango), Friday, 23 December 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

*like

― Merry Christmas (fandango), Friday, 23 December 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

of course lightning bolt are better than b&s, jesus

― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Friday, 23 December 2005 12:10 (twenty years ago)

The mp3 doesn't agree with my computer's insides, but thank you anyway, it was a kind thought.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 23 December 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

I kind of like a few of their albums, but I saw them at Coachella a few years ago and they were very, very flaccid. And clammy. Ew.

― jsoulja (jsoulja), Friday, 23 December 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

I have put Lightning Bolt on my wish list. I'm so fucking hip.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 23 December 2005 14:27 (twenty years ago)

five years pass...

I'm imagining Ned giving Stuart Murdoch a swirly whilst listening to Hair of the Dog by Nazareth.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson)

― buzza, Thursday, 17 March 2011 22:50 (fifteen years ago)

Ned Raggett OTM

― Morty Maxwell (crüt), Thursday, 17 March 2011 22:52 (fifteen years ago)

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