Are white people who say "I don't like hip hop" yet listen to it when white people make it really saying "i don't like black people"?

"overextending their intellectual capacities" does not mean "thinking too much." If you thought that, it was a serious misreading. Overextending one's intellectual capacities means performing laborious mental gymnastics to compensate for an argument that doesn't make any logical sense-- and of course, failing in these efforts to generate a convincing logical argument (i.e. "if your music collection doesn't include a satisfactory number of black artists, then you're racist."). My point in that post, which I thought was somewhat obvious, was that you can't jump to ridiculous conclusions about racism simply by formulating so-called intellectual responses informed by your own sets of cultural standards and baggage. True, we might live in a world where we're increasingly aware of multitudes of cultural viewpoints, but it doesn't preclude the idea that you might just fucking like certain kinds of music, and that doesn't make you a racist. To claim that it does is narrow-minded, self-righteous, and just plain wrong.

Exactly what makes West African (or African American) music more "black" than the way more melodically oriented East African or North African music?

Did he shut it off? Or did he hear the spoken intro and start commenting on the intro? He wasn't generalizing about Cee-Lo as an artist - he was just responding to what the interviewer played for him. It sounds like Merritt's as riled about examples of minstrelsy as his critics are - he's just seeing it in a different place than them. (Again, it's not like he refuses to talk about these themes or puts his foot in his mouth when he does speak about them - he just has a different take on it than his critics.)

I don't know if Cee Lo's ever directly addressed minstrelsy or parodied it, but I'm pretty sure his take would be more interesting than Merritt's or The Frogs'.

Substitute a more recent song with a 'neutral'/positive mention of Jesus and I think a large number of ILXors would do exactly that.

I'm not sure using 'minstrel show' in one lyric or criticizing one Southern rap act as such constitutes a 'take' on minstrelsy.

Well, one right off the bat is 90%+ of gay men haven't recorded theirs. (When I do it, it's usually an expression of mockery toward the Chelsea Boy mentality, motivated by phenomena like gay crowds rushing to see the closeted-athlete drama Take Me Out on Broadway: "Ooooh, baseball -- ex-thotic!!!") I also can't think of many examples of homo-enacted swishery in the mass media that I've found funny aside from Scott Thompson's Buddy Cole character.

-- Eazy (chicagoflaneu...), May 13th, 2006 11:18 PM

it sez he shut if off:

it was too much for Merritt, who stopped the song after a few seconds of this.

-- Dr Morbius (wjwe...), May 14th, 2006.

He seems to have more of a 'take' on it than people who don't go off on rants about te Chrsty Minstrels when they hear a snippet of a 'conscious' rap song.

Perhaps some people here, much like Mr. Merritt, aren't familiar with Cee Lo's music. He was obviously raised in the church and the
intro is closer to a preacher working his way into a sermon than anything from a minstrel show.

Merritt apparently has poor listening skills or is so far gone into his ideology that he can't recognize the difference between, say, D4L and an artist who basically agrees with him (albeit using language he can't.):

Cee Lo, from Goodie Mob's "Still Standing" LP:

"A nigga done read history but yet his eyes didn't see,
the only reason you a nigga is because somebody else wants you to be.

And when they call me a nigga to my face'
can't do nothin' but walk away,
but here it is niggas call other niggas "nigga" each and every day.

Shit, I could've hit the club as fresh as I could be,
but really, it's all for another nigga to see.
You know how a nigga get when he see another nigga's outfit.
Don't want nobody to have what he ain't got,
somebody get drunk, get mad, and get shot.
I'm sick of lyin'. I'm sick of glorifyin' dyin'.
I'm sick of not trying, shit I'm sick of being a nigga.

So many black men out here trying to be niggas.
Keeping it real to the point that they dying to be niggas.
When in actuality the fact is you ain't a nigga because you black,
you a nigga cause of how you act.
But you don't want me to tell you the truth, so I'ma lie to you,
make it sound fly to you."

Louis Armstrong's reading of the "satisfac'shull" line = genius

Wait, who actually claimed this? I mean, I can see why, but I don't remember any instances of people using the R word to describe his attitudes towards "Chinese music" (or bebop, I guess).

Anyway, I heard this story from a (black, if it matters) Berkeley musicology professor about 5-6 years ago. Although he didn't use the word "racist" to my recollection, he basically implied that Armstrong got into hot water somehow, but my memory fails as to what that entailed. Perhaps it just accentued Armstrong's image of being someone who was out-of-touch with the new era of jazz.

Now that I think about this story, it strikes me as very similar to the Stephin Merritt controversy. Both seem to involve making comments out of personal candidness (and/or irritation), while failing to note the racial sensitivities of the people involved. Unfortunately, these are the kinds of things that's it's very easy for the public and the media to latch onto and blow out of proportion.

you can't jump to ridiculous conclusions about racism simply by formulating so-called intellectual responses informed by your own sets of cultural standards and baggage.

No one has been intent in this thread with labelling merritt a 'racist.' The discussion isn't about finding where Merritt is on the 'racist/not racist' line. We're just finding problematic aspects of his approach to the whole issue.

Deej, I'm certain that these "problematic aspects" you speak of have nothing to do with implications of racism. They obviously have to do with... uh... er... gee, what do they have to do with?

That aside, I think what you're trying to say is that the point of the discussion is not to lambaste Merritt for his "racism" per se but to deconstruct the mentality of someone who could say what Merritt has, and can do so without feeling any need for self-censorship and/or political correctness. There seems to be a certain shrill "THINK OF THE CHILDEN!!!" tone to the indignant half of this crowd, but what I haven't heard is one salient argument that clearly elucidates what exactly the problem is with what he said-- in concrete, not abstract, terms.

Thanks for proving my point.

-- punis (ad...), May 14th, 2006.

Upthread Nabisco pretty much zeroed in on the problem. Black artists have raised similar issues about how some popular black entertainers reinforce sterotypes--Little Brother put out an album called the Minstel Show, Chuck D called WB & UPN We Buffoons and the United Plantation of Negroes--but the fact that Merritt picked on Cee Lo, a musician who actively fights aganst such sterotypes, calling his intro an example of minstrelsy, suggests that Merritt is far too tin eared in regards to black culture & entertainment to be commenting on it in the media or that he perceives any sign of "blackness" to equal minstrelsy.

Can't both be true?

but Merritt was responding to something someone just played for him out of the blue during the course of an interview - it's not like he was writing a piece on it. I think he should have listened to the whole song or several by the same artist, but he was just responding the same way you or I would when someone says, "hey check this out, what's your take ?" He was in this instance overreacting, surely, but from one snap judgment, and an avowed dislike of contemp hip-hop in general, to charges of racism and visceral rejection of "blackness" or whatever is going too far.

http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in_depth/2006/000761.php

Discus.

http://www.theroot.com/blogs/dig/joaquin-phoenix-rap-career-rumored-be-bull

Here's my question: why do people continue to use black culture as a place to play and get their kicks? There are some serious hip hop artists out there [Lupe Fiasco, etc], plunging deep into their souls and culture, posing questions about our times, and helping reshape the consciousness of a generation. Even the so-called "bling-rappers" are attempting to articulate the reality or pursuit of a consumer-rich life. But some whites [and others] think it's cool-beans to mock the art form by placing themselves in it and showing the world how horribly they understand or absorb it. Who cares! Why is there a platform for this? Why do some whites continue to think mocking blackness is a way to make a buck or get attention? I know this is a bit extreme, maybe, but it's a form of blackface. Yeh, I said it. Blackface. If the rumor is true [and I'm sure it is] I'm disappointed in Joaquin. Here's some advice for Joaquin and others like him: Play somewhere else! Blackface is passe!

[Lupe Fiasco, etc] solid username material

Has there been a thread on this subject yet?

i thought the beat on that one joaquin joint was aight

some white people might be saying that. or they might just be more receptive something that is more in tune with white culture. ie. eminem as opposed to say, redman or whoever.

― Dr. Rodney's Original Savannah Band (R. J. Greene),

If I identify with Redman moreso than Eminem, does that mean I am black?

"plunging deep into their souls and culture"

back before I registered here I would read threads like this all the way through and wonder what I would say if given the opportunity.