"the cynicism, irony and self-aware posturing found in indie rock"

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Cunga wrote this in another thread. I'm wondering: when did this become a defining characteristic of indie? and with what band(s)?

― AaronK (AaronK), Monday, 29 August 2005 11:49 (twenty years ago)

this becomes a defining characteristic of indie every time an indie guy discovers he also likes other types of music

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Monday, 29 August 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

Some time around 1980, when it became the defining characteristic of most serious Art (of the non-outsider variety). Since indie rockers tend to think of themselves as Artists, and to hang out with other Artists, this is how they think.

― Vornado, Monday, 29 August 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

When punk broke.

― k/l (Ken L), Monday, 29 August 2005 12:17 (twenty years ago)

this becomes a defining characteristic of indie every time an indie guy discovers he also likes other types of music

HAHAHAHA

― Hurting (Hurting), Monday, 29 August 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

BNOTM

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Monday, 29 August 2005 18:16 (twenty years ago)

PWNED

― the food has a top snake of 1 (ex machina), Monday, 29 August 2005 19:02 (twenty years ago)

Delete Vornado's post and my other post and lock it.

― k/l (Ken L), Monday, 29 August 2005 19:29 (twenty years ago)

these are wonderful, fabulously cynical, ironic, and self aware answers, but bands, i want more names please.

― AaronK (AaronK), Monday, 29 August 2005 22:25 (twenty years ago)

The Mark Twain Experience

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 29 August 2005 22:26 (twenty years ago)

"the cynicism, irony and self-aware posturing found in 65% of all pop culture events of the last five years"

― disco violence (disco violence), Monday, 29 August 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)

(conservative estimate)

― disco violence (disco violence), Monday, 29 August 2005 22:57 (twenty years ago)

I wanna know who the prototypical cynical ironic posing persons are, too.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 29 August 2005 23:18 (twenty years ago)

(Or posturing, not posing; 'scuse me.)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 29 August 2005 23:18 (twenty years ago)

"the cynicism, irony and self-aware posturing"

honestly, this is something I associate more with hip-hop (see: 50 Cent)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 29 August 2005 23:27 (twenty years ago)

This is basically a formula for Rock.

― Bobby Peru (Bobby Peru), Monday, 29 August 2005 23:30 (twenty years ago)

But seemingly this characterization is made about a particular type of cynical ironic self-aware posturing in idnie rock.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 29 August 2005 23:33 (twenty years ago)

idnie rock tried to knock experimental horse off the box but real g's ain't havin' that shit

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:10 (twenty years ago)

Whatever.

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:15 (twenty years ago)

i have appalling posture after years of slouching

― jimmy glass (electricsound), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:17 (twenty years ago)

I think of a lot of 80s mainstream rock as being cynical, self-aware, etc.

I think of the 90s "indie" thing (if there is one) as being more of a jaded, half-lazy torpor (Pavement, Slint, etc.) But also maybe an attempt to step back slightly from rock-stardom tropes, to embrace the loveable loser, etc.

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:20 (twenty years ago)

disco violence- that's just because indie has gone mainstream.

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:30 (twenty years ago)

I may be an army of one on this, but since the guy seemed to want names, I'm going to name the American Music Club as an example of this. Even though I'm not even sure they qualify as "indie."

― k/l (Ken L), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:33 (twenty years ago)

I don't even dig AMC but "cynical"? it's some of the most sentimental music I've ever heard!

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 02:54 (twenty years ago)

http://www.christiewalsh.com/fun/art/chibiweezer.jpg

― amon (eman), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 03:07 (twenty years ago)

in my limited knowledge, it seems weezer would be more when these attitudes came into the mainstream.

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 10:38 (twenty years ago)

Aaron NKOTB.

― moley, Tuesday, 30 August 2005 11:00 (twenty years ago)

What about Rox? ;)

― The Popish Plot (dymaxia), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

I have thought about it some more and have now identified the seedcore of this phenomenon: Marshall Crenshaw's "Cynical Girl."

― k/l (Ken L), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 21:21 (twenty years ago)

I think of the 90s "indie" thing (if there is one) as being more of a jaded, half-lazy torpor (Pavement, Slint, etc.)

How was Pavement lazy? They toured, put out records, became fairly well known...if you look past the press and the sort of self-created image, they seemed positively careerist...I mean, shit doesn't just HAPPEN by accident...

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 21:23 (twenty years ago)

also, this thread should be retitled Indie Strawman BBQ '05.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 21:24 (twenty years ago)

I think of the 90s "indie" thing (if there is one) as being more of a jaded, half-lazy torpor (Pavement, Slint, etc.)

there was nothing jaded or half-lazy about slint, either. pavement's arguable but malkmus did eventually turn it into much more of a professional band.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 21:44 (twenty years ago)

I think he just means in terms of the image they constructed with the sound of the music as well as the look or lyrics or whatever. Pavement sound like they didn't bother to tune and aren't too fussed about playing in time with each other or putting loads of digital effects on their records (whether or not they actually did). Of course they worked hard to achieve and maintain this (probably calculated) aesthetic but it is a particular aesthetic effect. Even with Slint, the guy's voice sounds totally untrained and unrehearsed, even though it probably wasn't. The songs are kind of slow and sluggish.

― Sundar (sundar), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 21:49 (twenty years ago)

slint's songs are slow and sluggish if you only count half of their catalog.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)

http://media02.liquidblue.com/imagedb/accessories/_Medium/RETEPKPS.jpg

― Bobby Peru (Bobby Peru), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 22:05 (twenty years ago)

also, this thread should be retitled Indie Strawman BBQ '05.

Ha Ha Ha Ha

(to the tune of "Here comes the Bride")

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 22:11 (twenty years ago)

I think he just means in terms of the image they constructed with the sound of the music as well as the look or lyrics or whatever

Yes, that is exactly what I meant.

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 22:15 (twenty years ago)

slint didn't have an image.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 22:16 (twenty years ago)

There's an Indie
Strawman
Waiting in the sky
We'd like to go and meet him
But we're afraid he'll make us cry

― k/l (Ken L), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 22:50 (twenty years ago)

slint didn't have an image.

This is not true. The "not cultivating an image" image has plenty of historical antecedent (beats, Paris in the 20s, etc); any public figure has an image, and any choice he makes about that image is a cultivation of the image. Unless you mean that they didn't actually have physical substance and were actually phantoms or something, which would be totally awesome.

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 23:10 (twenty years ago)

So ... Weezer, then? Were they cynical? Were they ironic? Did they posture? (I honestly don't know because I only know a few of their songs, but I would like to know!)

I don't know as that Pavement were cynical or ironic or that they postured.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 23:47 (twenty years ago)

This is the kind of unanswerable question that would have brought the Starship Enterprise computer to a grinding halt in no time flat, thereby enabling it to throw off the alien energy parasite that had been infesting it and, in a final sign of returning normality, allowing Captain Kirk to order Mister Chekhov to chart a course for home at the appropriate warp speed.

― k/l (Ken L), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 23:52 (twenty years ago)

if albums nobody bought and ads in small magazines while slint was actually active count, then i stand by my statement. if anything, the number of myths and legends that accumulated about them over the years only prove my point. hell, i remember being asked one time in boston if i was in slint just because i'm from louisville.

tim, malkmus has often used irony as both a lyrical and musical device.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 00:01 (twenty years ago)

Vornado was OTM in the beginning of the thread when he linked it to the rise of conceptualism in all areas of art across the board. Indie rock, secretly or not so secretly, fancies itself on the level of painting, sculpture etc. as a means of artistic self-expression -- i.e., essentially a highbrow pursuit that is not automatically open to everybody. So when "high" art got ultra-cliquish in the '80s, a tiny world of grant-hunters and gallerista heiresses, indie rock followed it into the budget model of the same hell.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 00:39 (twenty years ago)

then why are there so many indie bands?!?!?

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 00:46 (twenty years ago)

Someone answer stencil's question please. Or tell us that it is only a dream.

― k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 00:53 (twenty years ago)

Better double-check Slint's image (pre-Pajo wearing Voivod shirts):

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/2142/sllivebig.jpg

Yep, it sucked.

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 00:54 (twenty years ago)

then why are there so many indie bands?!?!?

I dunno, why is every other college girl a "photographer?"

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:00 (twenty years ago)

Yep, it sucked.

sez the guy who doesn't have a dust jacket photo.

one photo taken by a fan at a show /= "image"

I dunno, why is every other college girl a "photographer?"

testy, testy! who knew ilm was so anti-diy?!?

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:03 (twenty years ago)

They have a hell of a backdrop, though! Looks like pin/thread art...

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:08 (twenty years ago)

Ian, how you can hate on that picture is beyond me. Except for the hair they could as easily be any thrash 3-piece outta L.A. circa 1986. Well OK and the sissy-lookin' Telecaster. But my point stands.

xpost: bands playing shows = image

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:09 (twenty years ago)

d. boon played a telecaster. tell me more about his "image," pls.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:19 (twenty years ago)

well, the first time I saw the Minutemen, at the Pomona Valley Auditorium in 1983, Boon's image was clearly an antidote to the L.A. club scene - Boon & Watt both had this we're-just-guys feel that was very distinct from that of their peers (and friends! they didn't hate on people who didn't share their aesthetics), who, like the whole L.A. scene at the time, favored exaggerated caricatures for images. Boon was all about the white T-shirt, jeans, belt, and comfortable shoes; he looked like the guy who'd changed your oil earlier that afternoon. Now, you might say that's "not an image," but in response I would have to say "bullshit." If you're doing creative work in public, you've got an image. If you're doing creative work period, you've got an image. It's very romantic to imagine some Pure Artistry that only exists in The Work Itself, but guess what? Romanticism's bullshit, and so's the contention that there's any band without an image. Much less Slint, whose image practically defines a whole school of band imagery.

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:28 (twenty years ago)

If you're doing creative work period, you've got an image.

even if you're thomas pynchon?

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:30 (twenty years ago)

you're joking, right? refusing to be photographed, refusing interviews, alla that jazz - that doesn't generate image for you? that doesn't (clearly, obviously, loudly) spell out a whole set of aesthetic priorities for you, and speak loudly about the relation of the author to book culture, media culture, etc etc etc?

clearly we mean something different by "image" but you didn't seem upthread to mean "visual image only"

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:32 (twenty years ago)

Me and D. Boon played for years, but punk rock changed our lives.

― k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:33 (twenty years ago)

whoa, an anti-image is an image, whoa.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:39 (twenty years ago)

well stence I mean you can be dismissive all day but it'll still be the case that the most set-in-stone image of them all is "we're guys who don't care about image! only substance!" I mean you can see how those kinda guys dress just by hearing their rhetoric

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:46 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, that's a nice old paradox - if one doesn't care about image, one may therefore wear clothes that point to an entirely different image, except for some reason one never does. Punk purists step into that one all the time (e.g., ballads are not punk, therefore the punkest motherfucking thing to do is to write a ballad, etc.)

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:51 (twenty years ago)

So this soft-spoken, almost shy 27-year-old newlywed with a lifetime's worth of records already under his belt is prepared to try again. After another tour that will take the current For Carnation lineup (Brian, his brother Michael, John Weiss, and Tim Ruth) to "every major city in the US...but not Milwaukee."they'll record a full-length. Why? The impetus is not money or fame, not with this sort of intense, non-commercial, quiet, lovely music.

"I was actually thinking about this the other day," says Brian. "I really like playing music. I think more than that, I like getting together with a group of people and realizing ideas, starting from scratch and getting something together, making something that's enjoyable for at least the people involved, if not an audience. Music is one thing, but just the sort of realization is probably the real thing behind why I can't get away from doing this."

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:53 (twenty years ago)

he's divorced now. maybe that's part of his image.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:56 (twenty years ago)

this has nothing to do with the directly preceding argument about slint etc. but as far as the original topic goes, since when are cynicism, irony, and self-awareness negative characteristics, let alone something unique to indie rock? every worthwhile artist from picasso to duchamp, rauschenberg, oldenberg, stella, the velvet underground, phil spector, elvis presley, the shangri las, the rolling stones, the sex pistols, bob dylan, the fall, delillo, the subway sect, slick rick the ruler, devendra banhart, the misfits & missy elliott have been cynical, ironic and self-aware. i would hope that any performers/artist who I expected to offer some sort of insight into anything would be at least a little cynical, and would employ all the tools available - including irony - to make themselves understood... and that they would be aware of what they were doing enough to do it with maximum panache & flash. for christ's sakes, i'm so sick of this argument (not this particular discussion, which seems reasonable enough on all sides, but this general topic). it's like a bunch of kids getting mad at santa claus for not existing even though he still brings the brats presents.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:58 (twenty years ago)

fritz otm

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:00 (twenty years ago)

Oh yeah, he is. I forget for a second those were GOOD things. If only indie-rock had MORE of them.

― k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:05 (twenty years ago)

all i'm saying is they are a part of normal intelligent discourse (take your own cynical & ironic post for starters), not the end of the world

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:09 (twenty years ago)

i enjoy flair. and pep! indie-rock is often lacking in pep. what it boils down to for me is: some people are cool and can get away with anything, and some people can't. i guess that's kinda darwinian or something. survival of the coolest, but it's kinda true. one person's irony and self-awareness is another person's smug, misplaced fatuousness. the difference between: "jesus, who does he think HE is?" and "Wow, who's THAT?!"

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:15 (twenty years ago)

Ian, how you can hate on that picture is beyond me.

I DON'T!

But I'd hate to think what the bassist from INXS would say about those shorts. For "self-aware posturing," they get a 0. This thread sucks. The CIA sent it to keep us busy.

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:18 (twenty years ago)

I earnestly hope we'll be rewarded for just how good we are at taking the hint, then

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:28 (twenty years ago)

The indies will survive
In their elitist bars
The cynicism, irony and self-aware posturing
Of our Indie Rock
The ineptness of our tunes
The non-image we inherit
The cynicism, irony and self-aware posturing
Of our Indie Rock
There on the stage
I could see it in his shorts
He only had a Telecaster
Five dimes at Guitar Center

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:33 (twenty years ago)

"We worked really hard on Spiderland," he says. "I mean, I definitely felt much more personal about it. I thought it represented us as people, musically, a lot more than Tweez did. That's about it. It seemed like when we were around, and actively playing and stuff, that people's responses to us were fairly ambivalent. I thought it was funny when the press picked up on it. For an independent release, it had a strange sort of audience and kept selling three or four years after we recorded it; it still sells more copies than when it first came out. I guess I don't know what else to say. It's just a record, you know?"

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:43 (twenty years ago)

"indie-rock is often lacking in pep."

As with most every other genre.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:45 (twenty years ago)

haha maybe in yr record collection!

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:46 (twenty years ago)

cynicism, irony, and self-aware posturing haven't really been definitive characteristics of indie rock in several years right?

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:46 (twenty years ago)

No dude. I'm not interested in records lacking pep or something else special. (x-post)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 02:47 (twenty years ago)

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