Why is Robert Pollard the most underrated songwritter ever?

Sheer # of amazing amazing 60's-esque Melodies

He's the king of that.

Not one of which could have been a hit in the actual '60s

-- drew (lichte_...), August 12th, 2004 12:19 AM.

1) Brian Wilson
2) Carole King/David Goffin
3) Lennon-McCartney
4) Holland-Dozier-Holland
5) Gene Clark
6) Marissa Marchant
6) Those other guys

Songwriters more unduly hated on by anti-rockist kneejerkers at ILM than Bob Pollard:

1) ????

A lot of his output (especially his solo output) ain't so hot because of the fact that he apparently thinks every 57 second half-idea he comes up with on the shitter is an awesome song, but this is not so.

People based their opinions of a songwriter on their entire output, and with Pollard, you have some great stuff lost in the brush of a lot of not-so-great stuff.

I don't get why people hold it against him that he's too prolific. And it makes it all the more absurd that people who think he only wrote a few good songs can explain it through that. As if he's like some monkey banging away at a typewriter who types long enough to eventually produce Shakespeare.

Funny this thread should come up since I hadn't listened to Bee Thousand in about five years. Then today I inexplicably got "Echos Myron" stuck in my head to the point where i had to pull out the LP and give it a listen again. Such a great song. Part of him being underrated as a songwriter is that he's actually a gifted lyricist yet people tend to discount his lyrics as abstract nonsense.

But hey, if you went to a show once and were skeeved by the very devoted, very male crowd, or if you went to the discography and found it inpenetrable and wanted an excuse not to be bothered, or need someone to blame for all the lo-fi or lazy collage art he inspired...he's an easy target.

Time will win out, though, as it since has for the once critically reviled likes of Wordsworth, Led Zeppelin and Peter Falk. Pollard will be the ne plus ultra of ILM saintdom in about the year 2023.

You must be so. fucking. high.

Sean this is a project I would happily undertake...but would that require a separate up/download for each track, or is there a way to do it in one fell swoop?

That said, I think Michael's remark - "it's awfully strange to call Pollard a songwriter" - is OTM, and speaks to the thread-question (which also loaded the dice against itself so badly that you couldn't really expect much reasoned dialogue, I figure). Pollard's got this sixties-pastiche thing going that seems to me, after a short time, rather more like something of a nervous tic or reflexive habit than compositional choice. Now, one might say: "who cares if the aesthetic is intentional or accidental?" but with something as referential/reverential as Pollard's '60s jones it seems fair to ask: what's he trying to do? "Write good songs" seems a disingenuous response, there's too much going on in 'em to think of them as just "here's what I came up with!"

Full disclosure, I can get into a GBV song when I hear one but have never really been able to bring myself to care much otherwise.

Sheer # of amazing amazing 60's-esque Melodies

Greg Cartwright (Oblivians/Compulsive Gamblers/Reigning Sound) not only matches him but thoroughly beats him at it.

It seems if he’d presented his songs (they are songs!) in a single guise — a dozen albums produced by Jon Brion or whatever with I don’t know Ry fucking Cooder, he’d be getting enormous props around here. If anything, Pollard’s sin is probably so unabashedly loving rock music (!), which turns out to be just NOT COOL. A lot of people can’t stomach the references without the wink-wink or the angular haircut. But for Pollard the aesthetic is inextricable to “writing good songs.” He’s a naïf -- the leg kicks are no joke -- and when that sincerity touches some sing-along schmuck in a backwards cap it rubs people wrong, especially people who have slotted him “indie rock” (which, btw, he is CONSTANTLY apologizing for/denouncing…)

This just isn't true - I had a huge paragraph arguing with it, but what would be the point? I think people have honest aesthetic reasons for disliking GBV, you've got this demonstrably false notion that Pollard isn't mega-famous because the sneering literati wanna keep him down or something. It doesn't matter, at any rate, whether he denounces indie rock; so does every other indie rock luminary, it goes with the territory!

*,** The answer to both of these questions would, of course, be pretty simple: absurd productivity, unwillingness to leave Dayton, lack of a breakout "Float On"-like single, beer, the bad timing of the move to hi-fi production coinciding with a creative lull.

For the record, I thought "Teenage FBI" was going to be huge. The fact that this was not licensed to every teen-comedy soundtrack in 1999 is a spectacular marketing failure.

Because they are? If not, please prove otherwise.

He is such a dick sometimes.

When did he say that?

here you go http://ink19.com/2001/04/magazine/interviews/guided-by-voices-9

No chicks in the tree house! That’s what I told Kim Deal. We were touring with The Breeders, and Kim asked me, right after Last Splash, “Why don’t you let me play bass?” And I thought for sure she was just fucking with me, so I said no. And I probably would have let her, but then I told her that we have a policy that there are no females allowed in Guided By Voices. It’s like when you’re a kid and you have your tree house and there’s no girls allowed in it. Then she did an interview in some GIRL magazine and she called me over and she goes, “Explain your philosophy to her!” And I said, “No chicks in the fuckin’ tree house, OK?”

Doesn't make a lick of sense.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/Pollardrelaxation.jpg

Pollard is an A-1 dick, no doubt (he's flipped-off his audience more than Mr. Rotten), but his song-writing should not be a point of contention. That he hasn't collaborated with the finer sex should be prefaced with instances where other (male) songwriters have (worked with women) to some prolific extent.

Nick Cave (PJ)
F Mac (McVie, Nicks)
Barry Gibb (Babara)
VU (Nico, Moe)
Stephen Merchant (?)

...still not real abundance...

...in rock/pop, anyways...

...plenty of instances with country, jazz, blues, etc, with FAR more crossed-gender efforts, no?

But, yes, he hasn't work with females... did Rush, ZZ Top, Scott Walker, Gerry Rafferty, etc.....?

men writing songs for women is super-common in rock/pop

(which is not really what La Lechera was asking about but you brought it up...)

I took her point to be more that a guy whose led a successful indie rock band for decades with tons of line-up changes - ie who's worked with an inordinately large range of collaborators/backing musicians - has never involved a single woman (apart from Kim Deal), is pretty weird.

A good point of comparison is Mark E. Smith & the Fall.

ie a similarly prolific frontman with a constantly shifting lineup, who has not coincidentally worked with a bunch of women

tbh I was wondering if LL was thinking of phoning Bob up to see if he needed a new drummer.

haha

Only 2 women have been in The Fall? More?

wtf are you nuts: Lucy Rimmer, Brix Smith, Una Baines, Marcia Schofield, Julie Nagle, Karen Leatham, Elena Palou etc etc

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/76827472459c49a5671ae856e3ac397a.png

Smith has consistently had women in the band his entire career

how many of them was smith not in a relationship with

a question about bob pollard: has he collaborated musically/creatively with any women who are not kim deal?

Why yes: Kelly Deal

sadlol

Most of them afaict mookie. Brix and elena were exceptions. Not that it matters, seems irrelevant to me.

Indeed but Una and Kay Carroll, Julia Nagle were all in relationships with him. Kay Carroll was never in the band though.

wtf are you nuts

― Οὖτις, Friday, 23 June 2017 00:16

Sorry, I completely misread an earlier post

But, yes, he hasn't work with females... did Rush.....?

― bodacious ignoramus, Thursday, June 22, 2017 3:57 PM (fifty-eight minutes ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMSFqXGZ5TQ

Difference between Pollard and everyone elese mentioned, even Mark E Smith, is that he's collaborated with about 3000 other musicians. And a woman.

mist king urth is genius. the lowest fi prog masterpiece

\m/

I took her point to be more that a guy whose led a successful indie rock band for decades with tons of line-up changes - ie who's worked with an inordinately large range of collaborators/backing musicians - has never involved a single woman (apart from Kim Deal), is pretty weird.

yeah this was basically it, and i was wondering what his problem is, but then i read that "no girls in the treehouse" shit and i remembered. i hate to say it, but what a stupid dick. if someone i knew said this, i would never talk to him again. of all the reasons i have to not like him anymore, this has parked itself at the top of the list.

tbh I was wondering if LL was thinking of phoning Bob up to see if he needed a new drummer.

― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Thursday, June 22, 2017 6:08 PM (yesterday) Bookmark
there was a time, lol

i would like to add that the interviewer in the "no chicks" interview linked above sucks too

Rush - Time Stand Still -- is singing 3 words considered a collaboration?

every time i think i can write the guy off, i remember how good some of his songs are and i feel like i'm back at square 1
this time i heard "secret star" after not-hearing it for years and i started bawling it was so good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZIi97N5sFM

oh yeah, that is a good one ...
i have the same general experience — i rarely put on GBV or related projects these days, but I'll hear a song every now and then and remember that he's got like 75-100 incredible songs. Which is a lot!
anyone know anything about this? out in August.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41UtKVDiDEL.jpg

Closer You Are is the authorized biography of Robert Pollard and Guided by Voices. Author Matthew Cutter is a longtime friend of Pollard and, with Pollard's blessing, Cutter has set out to tell the whole, true story of Guided by Voices. This will be the first book to take an in-depth look at the man behind it all, with interviews conducted by the author with Pollard's friends, family, and bandmates, along with unfettered access to Pollard himself and his extensive archives, ephemera, and artwork, which many fans will no doubt recognize from the band's numerous album covers. A series of appendices will further illuminate Pollard's solo career, side projects, and art shows.

Whoa, ok that seems like a must read!

Completely understand LL's stance: guy's tumbled way into questionable territory, and there's heaps of bad stuff, but damn he wrote some fantastic songs. They pull me back in every time.

just in time for my bday
i'll read it

Wow I am all over this!

It's funny xpost I have such big love and respect for Bob's songs, to the extent that I never just drop into the catalog. It's been a couple years now and when I go in I go WAY in. I would put the number up above that 75-100.

yeah, the book sounds pretty promising ...
and yeah, when I wrote 75-100 I thought maybe that's low.

synchronicity — just saw this pollard-curated Roches mix posted on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/user/1247112455/playlist/6Zf8EZVGFPVeTDyQpS5SW6

That's....unexpected.

I guess it's easy to look at the sheer volume of it all and penalize him for hitting, say, .250.... But shit man 200 really good songs is 200 really good songs!

Author Matthew Cutter is a longtime friend of Pollard

This is not good though.

Yeah not ideal but anyway I'm not reading for some kind of takedown

I am okay w hagiography if the subject is p much someone slogging it out on the margins

yeah i don't really mind, and it's not like bob is super mysterious

Posted on the/a GBV thread, but they killed it here the night before New Year's. Three hour set! And then they did it again in NYE I guess.

Is Sprout still in band?

They were indeed good at Empty Bottle! I was at that same show! No Sprout isn't in band - but that's ok Bobby Bare Jr is a nice foil for Doug Gillard and the band all around smokes. Kevin March is an excellent drummer for them!

Yeah not ideal but anyway I'm not reading for some kind of takedown

Did you read Jim Greer's book on GBV? All those tedious tales of Bob and his boring boozing buddies yukking it up down in Bob's basement? I'm not expecting a takedown but, if you're going to write a book on Pollard, a little distance would be preferable because the guy seems to have surrounded himself with boosters and cheerleaders and enablers - no women though, of course.

Ugh Doug Gillard sucks

I guess he’s the best steady Bob could get
But damn he’s got no soul man

This is a Bob thread, I get it, but he shouldn’t be advertising GBV without his club dudes

Yes, I think he's a good foil but I don't really like his guitar playing.

It’s too exact

too orthodox

i not only read the jim greer book, but attended a book tour event, which was my first (and only) time meeting bob p

I read the Greer book, it was whatever. I'm definitely not interested in an analysis of why there are no women in the band. I would be very up for nerding out on his process (beyond Rolling Rock), song germination, takes on his peers and other musicians/artists etc.

I appreciate Gillard for his versatility. He never sounds like he's really bleeding for it like Mitch Mitchell did, but there's a lot of mid- and later-period Pollard stuff that calls for greater range