Why do people like horrible singing voices?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Not necessarily horrible in every instance, but just... rubbish. Why do people like singers who can't sing? It seems to be a historical trend, from Dylan through Madonna to James Blunt. I know people who insist that Blunt's voice is beautiful but to me it is as a honking, castrated dog. Chris Martin likewise, people think his voice is beautiful, but if you listen to "Fix You" he's all over the place, garbling and missing notes, but people love it. Why are they popular?

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:48 (twenty years ago)

Where is the Simply Red single in the midweek charts then?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:52 (twenty years ago)

Do you just mean "Why do people like voices that sound horrible to me?"

"Why do people like technically horrible singing voices?" is a valid question too, but my opera-singing ex-girlfriend used to say that Martin had a pretty technically able voice. (She loathed Tom Waits.) Maybe Dan S will weigh in.

― sean gramophone (Sean M), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:53 (twenty years ago)

Because personality > technique?

It's Ian Brown that I can't cope with. Worst live singer I've ever heard, by a massive distance.

I ought to dig up that Charlotte Church quote about Chris Martin again... I stuck it on one of the Coldplay threads.

― mike t-diva (mike t-diva), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:55 (twenty years ago)

Why do people go for the honking, castrated canine voice of fit ex-squaddie who does a striptease in his video James Blunt? It truly is a mystery.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:55 (twenty years ago)

Nick, I know it's a cliche to use this as a comeback with you but really... Danny MacNamara??

Honestly though, that to me is a voice that sounds very strained, flat and clumsy but clearly you get quite a lot out of it. So what's the secret?

With a lot of these it's not the voice per se but the performance, timing, emphases, delivery, call it what you will - especially w/Dylan and early Madonna.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

What people don't understand is that people like Blunt and Martin, not because of their vocal technique, but because they are fit. This is what matters in 2005 pop.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

dylan has a great voice, wtf?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:59 (twenty years ago)

I don't think it hurts Blunt or Martin but I don't think it's the prime determinant of their success either. Sentimentality plays a big part - one of my colleagues only liked Athlete's "Wires" (now there's a rub voice) when she learned it was about his little baby.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:59 (twenty years ago)

the start of 'fix you' really did throw me for a loop, cos there's no way you can overlook its awfulness, but usually i think martin somehow gets awaywith it. it's a fine line.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:01 (twenty years ago)

I read somewhere that Tom Waits has a 7-octave vocal range. That's fucked up. So's his voice but I still like him and I think it suits his music that it sounds like he's gargling with cream crackers.

― dog latin (dog latin), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:03 (twenty years ago)

People pop Blunt and Martin in their trolleys to cheer themselves up after shopping for sprouts. They used to do the same thing with Terry's All Gold.

― mike t-diva (mike t-diva), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:03 (twenty years ago)

Dylan does not have a greats voice. It is technical deficienc, which is why he has never had a number one hit, as opposed to other more technical able and therefore more melodic singers of the period, such as Ken Dodd and Jim Reeves.

― Comstock Carabineri (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:06 (twenty years ago)

Oh, here we are.

"I can't stand Bob Dylan. He sounds like a freak. And that Chris Martin isn't any good either - he can't do any vibrato, which colours a voice, so he just sounds conversational." Now she's in her stride. "Look, I don't mind Coldplay," she continues, getting increasingly animated. "And I know that style of singing is very modern. But it's a bit wimpy and as soon as one person's done it, they're all fuckin' at it. They're trying to sound like Jeff Buckley, but his voice is outstanding and nobody can be compared to that feller."

- Charlotte Church.

― mike t-diva (mike t-diva), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:07 (twenty years ago)

dylan isn't trying to 'sing' as she construes singing.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:08 (twenty years ago)

Our Charlotte is an infinitely better singer than Their Bob. Better songs too.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:09 (twenty years ago)

balls.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:10 (twenty years ago)

Bob Dylan has never written a song as good as "Let's Be Alone." Fact.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:11 (twenty years ago)

Because personality > technique?

even more of a black mark against blunt!

i think it stems from the idea of vocal flaws reflecting emotional sincerity - cracks in the voice, soul over clinical technique. somehow this has been warped into fucking unlistenable voices like blunt being interpreted as the height of passion. ugh.

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:12 (twenty years ago)

oh c-lo is better than boring old dylan in every possible way.

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:13 (twenty years ago)

MANUFACTURED POP IS MORE FUN THAN YOUR HOARY OLD FOLK SINGERS LIKE BOBBY DYLAN OH YES

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:14 (twenty years ago)

"Cannonball" by Damien Rice proves Lex' point.

I'm ignoring the tiresome poppist contrarianism manifesting here. ;)

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:14 (twenty years ago)

henry you misspelt "hoary" there.

also: bobby darin > bobby dylan

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

Charlotte Church would never lower herself to doing an advert for lingerie.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:16 (twenty years ago)

also: bobby darin > bobby dylan

Bobby Davro > Bobby Dylan

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:17 (twenty years ago)

Charlotte Church would never lower herself to doing an advert for lingerie.
-- Dom Passantino (juror...), October 20th, 2005.

haha!

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:18 (twenty years ago)

now come on honestly, which is preferable - the sexy welsh diva giving you the come-on (metaphorically) or haggard old wino with moothie dribbling "huluhhummllmhmmhblrrmhmmlmhmhh HUV YE GOAT 1OP SON? hrrmllbrrmhlmmhmmlmz" for 20 minutes at a time?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:25 (twenty years ago)

[i shd add this important fact: i have not consciously heard any post-1967 dylan music]

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:27 (twenty years ago)

ihttp://www.rikwalton.com/music/rock/kevincoyne/p/keco002.jpg

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:29 (twenty years ago)

Who gives a fuck what someone's voice sounds like? I only care about whether they can sing. Dylan can sing. So can Howlin' Wolf, Billie Holiday, Louis Armstrong, Johnny Rotten and loads of others who weren't born with a conventionally pretty voice.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:34 (twenty years ago)

Dylan can sing in tune, which more than most singers can manage - well he used to be able to

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:35 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but whose tune? Luigi Nono's?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:38 (twenty years ago)

You'd need Cathy Berberian for that, if that husband of her would let her sing for anyone else - Hey Luciano!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:39 (twenty years ago)

Our Cathy, sadly, passed on some 22 years ago, so that's unlikely.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:41 (twenty years ago)

I know, so did Luciano

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:43 (twenty years ago)

Indeed he did, two years ago. He might be working with Alma Cogan these days.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:47 (twenty years ago)

which is preferable - the sexy welsh diva giving you the come-on (metaphorically) or haggard old wino with moothie dribbling "huluhhummllmhmmhblrrmhmmlmhmhh HUV YE GOAT 1OP SON? hrrmllbrrmhlmmhmmlmz" for 20 minutes at a time?

the latter, thanks.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:05 (twenty years ago)

do you talk to yourself at bus stops?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:07 (twenty years ago)

Well, if no-one else will, why not?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

no, i just find your automatic popism dreary and played-out.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

What, like Bob Dylan is?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

Operatic popism?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

I'm far from popist, but I really dislike Dylan.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

Certainly wasn't as good a song stylist as Glen Daly!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:18 (twenty years ago)

How dare you mention Glen in a thread dedicated to horrible singing voices!

ihttp://www.musicscotland.co.uk/musicbox/catalog/images/glen%20daly.jpg

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:20 (twenty years ago)

admittedly i don't find it half as dreary and played-out as marcello's constant snarky pseudo-populist "come now, you know i'm right" dribblings on threads like these.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

the thing is, i am right. not my fault you can't deal with it.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

wow, you make a very convincing argument. well, i'm off to dispose of all those horrible dylan records that were never any good, even a little bit. wonder how i never noticed before.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

that's the spirit. take them to your local second-hand shop. you might get a fiver for the lot. think of all the chips that would purchase!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

well, i'm off to dispose of all those horrible dylan records that were never any good

Landfill or impacter?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:29 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 61 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

What some call a 'horrible singing voice' (like Dylan's) is not an 'affectation', nor is it proof that one is consciously trying to demonstrate their 'sincerity'.

It's something that comes from the Scotch / Irish folk tradition in the old world, and especially folk tradition in North America - people's voices just aren't all shouty or belty or classical and stuff. No one is 'trying' to sound that way. It's just a type of voice that is best suited to certain types of music.

Sheesh. Listen to some old, old folk recordings if you don't believe me.

― cultural amnesia, Thursday, 20 October 2005 22:12 (twenty years ago)

With Dylan (1961-1964, say), in that it's an imitation of those old, old folk recordings , it is an "affectation" and an attempt to demonstrate "sincerity."

Can we talk about Craig Finn or something now?

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Thursday, 20 October 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

Is that 'final'? Honestly, I can't imagine Dylan singing any other type of music. I used to think he was 'affected' when I was young, but then I discovered a whole bunch of early folk music doing the same thing. How dare he not sing Broadway, because that's the only thing that idiots on the east coast can comprehend!

― mickey raft (mickeygraft), Friday, 21 October 2005 04:34 (twenty years ago)

Sick Mouthy to thread

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 21 October 2005 04:38 (twenty years ago)

look, just listen to dylan or waits while you jerk off to pictures of charlotte church. now can we please start arguing about bernard sumner?

― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Friday, 21 October 2005 04:52 (twenty years ago)

Dammit, can't anyone read?

Of course he's "affected" because he listened to that early folk music and imitated it! This is part of the reason I like Bob Dylan!

And WTF re. Broadway and east coast? Why the fuck does Broadway keep coming up?

Let's talk about Roger Miller. I like him, he could sing, and he wrote a Broadway musical! Originally starring John Goodman, who can also sing.

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Friday, 21 October 2005 04:53 (twenty years ago)

Oh yeah, let's talk about Roger Miller...not!

I'm sure Bob Dylan 'imitated' it because it suited him and his voice. He was just a folk singer in the beginning.

But at least he wasn't one of those nauseating hillbillies - I mean, he was a northern college boy and all!

― mickey raft (mickeygraft), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:07 (twenty years ago)

if some anti-rock pundit wrote a piece for the national review or whatever pointing out what a mediocre singer john lennon was compared to maria callas, we'd be ripping it to shreds.

note that "we" like a 20 ft cactus standing outside the east entrance to macy's.

the other thing of course is the songs. dylan can't write songs. his melodies are non-existent. his tunes have no tunes. if you want a litmus test of proper melody, imagine what like a rolling stone would sound like if the ventures or the shadows played it. exactly. even eve of destruction is a better tune than anything dylan's done, if only because it's actually a tune, notwithstanding that it has some sorely pertinent points to make about this disintegrating world in which we're living less, day by day.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:18 (twenty years ago)

??? like a rolling stone has plenty of melody! the true test is to be able to imagine it turned into elevator music, and im sure it has been.

― minna (minna), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:30 (twenty years ago)

try singing it. there is no actual melody (see also the smiths, dire straits etc.).

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:32 (twenty years ago)

well ok the verses dont have a lot going on melodically. the bridge is very hooky and melodic. you can sort of change it in your head to be more melodic than it is tho. but anyway in that case doesnt it say a lot for dylans voice that it can carry a completely tuneless song

― minna (minna), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:39 (twenty years ago)

Victor Mature could carry Rita Hayworth. Doesn't make him Laurence Olivier.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:41 (twenty years ago)

well i say bob brings MICROMELODIES very skilfully! (as opposed to 'does not sing in tune')

― minna (minna), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:43 (twenty years ago)

And hey, imagine the Byrds singing "Mr. Tambourine Man!" Now there's a laugh!

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:44 (twenty years ago)

Well they couldn't either but that's a separate issue.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:48 (twenty years ago)

note that "we" like a 20 ft cactus standing outside the east entrance to macy's.

i have no idea what the hell you're talking about, nor do i really want to.

you're just trolling, marcello. i regret wasting any time on you at all.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:22 (twenty years ago)

then explain to me what dylan's talking about.

and the word was "touche."

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:25 (twenty years ago)

The trolling on this thread is of a very high quality.

(xpost)

― thousands of tiny luminous spheres (plebian), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:35 (twenty years ago)

if dylan can't write melodies, why is he one of the most covered songwriters of the last century?

how is your insistence on subjecting dylan's songs to "a litmus test of proper melody" any different from one of geir's diatribes?

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:37 (twenty years ago)

I'm gonna have to explain why I don't hate Danny McNamara's voice sooner or later, aren't I?

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:38 (twenty years ago)

it'd be more interesting than this shower.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:45 (twenty years ago)

dylan is only covered by people who can't sing or have little idea of melody or have an eye on their bank balance. just because people cover his songs does not negate the fact that his songs lack melody.

i understand that your ears are probably distorted from a painful lifetime of amelodic hip op beats, but this is the fact and that is fact.

whom are you calling a shower, you shower?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:49 (twenty years ago)

Victor Mature could carry Rita Hayworth. Doesn't make him Laurence Olivier.

He could also carry Hedy Lamarr which makes one lucky sonofabeeyatch

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:28 (twenty years ago)

this is sort of like the last act of the scopes trial when clarence darrow got william jennings bryan to to admit that he believed that "man is not a mammal."

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:29 (twenty years ago)

"What people don't understand is that people like Blunt and Martin, not because of their vocal technique, but because they are fit. This is what matters in 2005 pop. "

That is what matters to 14 year-olds. Chris Martin doesn't sell a lot of records to 14 year-olds.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:36 (twenty years ago)

Fuck off.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:39 (twenty years ago)

Chris Martin doesn't sell a lot of records to 14 year-olds

But I bet he'd like to

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:40 (twenty years ago)

I expect Geir knows quite a lot about 14-year-olds. Or would like to know quite a lot about 14-year-olds.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:44 (twenty years ago)

Victor Mature could carry Rita Hayworth. Doesn't make him Laurence Olivier.

Laurence Olivier never worked with The Monkees, clearly Mature - and, by extension, Dylan - wins.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:08 (twenty years ago)

Mature was never out-acted by Neil Diamond, clearly Olivier loses on all fronts

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:11 (twenty years ago)

The Monkees are another pile of overrated pisspoo.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:11 (twenty years ago)

Larry took the money. The author of "I'm A Believer" believed it. Which is worse?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:12 (twenty years ago)

You danced to them tho!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

Sick Mouthy to thread, again

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

I was dancing in my head to the Robert Wyatt version.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

I'll say something you can ridicule in the manner of a schoolyard bully soon, RJG, don't worry.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

: D

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:22 (twenty years ago)

Wow, this thread appears to be a new low for Marcello.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

i'll just repeat what others have said: I find dylan's voice expressive. He may not have a great range, may not be able to hold a tune *too* well and all that, but TO ME it's good enough that it tends to not distract. There's something about the way he sings Girl From North Country on Freewheelin that makes me have this crazy nostalgia for someplace I've never been. Or the way he sings It's Alright Ma or Visions of Johanna. and most covers of dylan I've heard by people who are incredibly more technically able than him somehow miss the mark for me.

― AaronK (AaronK), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:10 (twenty years ago)

If you want to look at the voice as just a technical instrument go ahead. but it's your loss. there is a word for people like charlotte church in the english language: ignorant

So you're actually implying that a perfect voice can't express any emotion. How sad, no? Both serve different functions/goals. I believe that in Pop you sometimes need *perfection* to convey that perfect world we want to escape to. This would never work if Neil Young or Bob Dylan sang those songs. But vice versa, you need a Dylan or whatever croaky voiced bloke (or woman) to have the opposite. Both have expressive voices, but both express different emotions.

― nathalie, a bum like you (stevie nixed), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

And by the way, how sad if you can't enjoy Pop music sung by Charlotte Church. Put your blinkers off and ENJOY her songs. ;-) The record is a mixed bunch but there's some great stuff on there.

― nathalie, a bum like you (stevie nixed), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:25 (twenty years ago)

yeah, OTM AaronK. and his performances during the 66 tour are emotionally amazing. among the most intense singing I've ever heard.

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

By the way, the answer to the original thread question is that some people don't like to be intimidated by music/musicians. It's that simple. Same reason some people prefer lo-fi production.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:28 (twenty years ago)

well, I dunno... am I intimidated by celine dion or mariah carey ? errr...don't think so !

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:31 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps I misused the word "intimidation" somewhat. What I meant that some people are more comfortable when the music they listen to remains in the realm of the doable. I remember an early Beck interview where he talks about how 80s mainstream radio drove him nuts precisely because he could not fathom how the music was made.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:35 (twenty years ago)

You know, I freakin' hate Dylan (with a few notable exceptions), but if you held a gun to my head and asked me to listen to either him or, say, Josh Groban, I'd take Dylan every time.

― monkeybutler, Friday, 21 October 2005 12:37 (twenty years ago)

LOL monkeybutler ! just picturing the face of groban singing made me shiver...

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:43 (twenty years ago)

the thing is that I cannot fathom how dylan sings like that ! (really, try to grab a guitar and play/sing some of his songs the way he does them : impossible !).
anyway, you could apply this theory to todays "pop" : it's much easier to make any dylan recording than any rachel stevens, neptunes, etc trax (that's no contradiction with my previous statement, by the way !).

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

"Perhaps I misused the word "intimidation" somewhat. What I meant that some people are more comfortable when the music they listen to remains in the realm of the doable. I remember an early Beck interview where he talks about how 80s mainstream radio drove him nuts precisely because he could not fathom how the music was made.
-- joseph cotten "

wow, this puts into words something i think about a lot. At one point, for example, I preferred Yngwie over steve vai because it was at least fathomable that someone could make those sounds. That lasted about 5 minutes, but the point is there. of course, as knowledge of the subject grows, what becomes unfathomable diminishes greatly.

― AaronK (AaronK), Friday, 21 October 2005 15:20 (twenty years ago)

derek bailey doesn't really do melodies either but hey

― tom west (thomp), Friday, 21 October 2005 16:18 (twenty years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.